P0420

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What are the causes of this code?

Is it possible for this code to be triggered when all parts are new and okay?

Just replaced the CAT 6K ago, and the O2s1 about
2-300 miles, went in water yesterday twice and engine stumbled. Today having hard time starting... code shows P0420 on a Toyota Tacoma 2.4 Standard.
 
That's a non-manufacturer-specific code for Catalyst Below Threshold. The ECU monitors this function by looking at the response of the upstream O2 sensor compared to the downstream O2 sensor. If the cat is working right and the ECU richens the mixture, the upstream O2 sensor will show rich but the downstream one should be steady due to the action of the catalyst. Sooo...

I guess it's possible that the water either cooled the cat to the point that it 'went out' temporarily and the OBD monitor functioned during that period of time. It could also be that water killed the cat in some way (seems unlikely). Really, the simplest explaination is that your cat is bad, again. OEM, or aftermarket unit? If it's aftermarket, be aware that it may not perform the same as the OEM unit and could still be working, just the ECU thinks it's not because it's not the same as the OEM part.

hth,
Robert
 
It is an AFTERmarket, BY Catco:
Looks decent IMO. I had a nasty one on before, and only made it to 60K before it dies... this one the steel is very thick and has a nice shield better looking than the OEM. It was very heavy and extra wide. And for the 6K the light never went off til last week. And now.

The number I have in the Truck if you need that, but it is oversized and it was working for 6K almost to the mile before I went into the WATER because of someone going the wrong way on the street and almost killing me, choice was HEAD-ON or WATER.

The front O2 was replaced the day or two before, and had about 200 miles on it. It was a Toyota O2 whereas the one I removed was a Bosh. The connectors looked a lot better and it seemed to feel heavier.

The rear O2 was never replaced.Original.
The Truck has 391,900+ miles.
 
Reset the ECU and see if it codes again. Sort of weird that it'd code right after an O2 replacement and hitting the water, but since a)Toyota typically know their business and b) there are checks for both the upstream and downstream O2 sensors and those are _not_ coding it probably really is a cat issue. If you get the same code after resetting then I'd think it would be an issue of the aftermarket cat not performing as well as the OEM unit that toyota used to calibrate the OBD software. Doesn't mean it's a bad cat, just that toyota have tight software limits...

Reset and get back to us
smile.gif


R
 
quote:

Originally posted by porterdog:
Reset the ECU and see if it codes again. -*-*

Did it.
Put, a lot of fuel additive... maybe about 6-7 times what I normally do (which is about 2-3 times the suggested dosages).

It has been a very slow day so I only went about 125 miles, and so far it is staying off.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Christopher R. Wise:
Remember that a O2 sensor measures Oxygen in the exhaust AND outside the exhaust

I don't think that's correct.

View the patent by following this link and then clicking on the patent link near the bottom of the page. No mention of comparison, just the sensor environment.

[ November 21, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: porterdog ]
 
Remember that a O2 sensor measures Oxygen in the exhaust AND outside the exhaust, so if the O2 got real dirty on the out side, it may not function right, it needs a reference point so if it can't see that it won't work correctly.


CRW
 
quote:

Originally posted by porterdog:

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher R. Wise:
Remember that a O2 sensor measures Oxygen in the exhaust AND outside the exhaust

I don't think that's correct.

View the patent by following this link and then clicking on the patent link near the bottom of the page. No mention of comparison, just the sensor environment.


NO THIS IS VERY CORRECT.

So you are saying that Volvo, GM, and all after market training that I have are wrong?

This is what I do, it needs to see outside air, there are two ways it does this, depending on design, one way is through the wires them self, and the other is the through the side case throught small crimps.

CRW
patriot.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by Christopher R. Wise:
-*-*This is what I do, it needs to see outside air, there are two ways it does this, depending on design, one way is through the wires them self, and the other is the through the side case throught small crimps.

CRW
patriot.gif
[/QB]

I looked at the link and it does appear to me that the dang outside needs to be clean.

I have to say this: the last TWO, the original and the one I just removed were CAKED with MUD and DIRT and looked about 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick.
I may have been throwing away BAD O2-s, from now on I think every 5-10 K I'm spraying something there.
Does anyone know WHAT is SAFE (brake-electric-??-cleaner) to DRENCH the OUTSIDE of the O2 and if it should be hot or cold and started or not started afterwards?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Christopher R. Wise:
So you are saying that Volvo, GM, and all after market training that I have are wrong?

Well, I WAS saying that, but I looked it up in the Bosch Handbook and now I see it was me that was wrong. I learned something new!

Sorry, and thanks!

Robert
 
More Codes today. Help!

This is about 2K after the last one. Autozone let me Borrow the reader and I cleared the code in there and the code poped back up today.

Now, I did dump in a WHOLE lot of a FUEL treatment this morning, because a new bottle was dropped this morning about three or four times and started to leak, and I dumped the whole thing in. The treatment I use is about 2-3 times MFG dosage. and I had enough to treat for a week at this triple ratio this morning, and there was already at least 3-4 times the dosage in there, so needless to say it got a healthy dose of fuel treatment (but boy did it feel great today - power!).
Anyhow I was expecting if anything to go off it would of been the first 10-20 miles... But no, only after about 180-200 miles did it trigger the code/dash light.
Today I had 1 cold start,
14 total starts, the rest of the time it was idle all day. About 2 hours Idle time today;
1 run 1/4 mile
2 runs 1 mile
7 runs 2 miles
15 runs 5 miles
4 runs 10 miles
3 runs 20 miles

Then the Check engine light when I had to slow down and concentrate on the phone because a buddy called me and we were on the cellular about 30 minutes.

The code again was a P0420 and the AutoZone guy told me since I had 393-K on my engine and my Rear O2 has never been replaced, and because my CAT is about 8-K old and my front o2 is about 2-K, that it HAD to be the rear O2. Although the report says that Bank 1 is below threshold for the current engine operating conditions.

I did borrow the reader and clear the codes, the trip home is 1.25 miles and no light in this short trip.

What do you think... >?
Bad O2 rear?
Bad CAT ?
Fuel ADDITIVE ?

P.S. I have been getting worse MPG since it went off after going into the high water listed above. The MPG has dropped about 2MPG although the light has not come on in 2-K.
 
I'd say it's due to the gas treatment, but that's just me
wink.gif
You may have killed either one of the two sensors. Same happaned to me when I decided that if one treatment of Berrymens B12 was good, then two at once would be super for my Dad's Blazer.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
I'd say it's due to the gas treatment, but that's just me
wink.gif
You may have killed either one of the two sensors. Same happaned to me when I decided that if one treatment of Berrymens B12 was good, then two at once would be super for my Dad's Blazer.


Well I hope not, but if it's the O2 with 393K on the original rear, and THAT is the one that is out, then I won't feel so bad, but to kill a CAT, Ummm... I have put as much as 1-gallon of this stuff in on an older car with a Cat but I don't think it had 2 O2's, --- had dumped water in there and needed to get rid of the water.... anyhow, it did nothing to the car.... I have on time to time done this before... and I always run it hot with additives.... maybe the rear died..
I just want to know if you guys think it's the rear one... I don't have money to guess... and I am about 400
short this and also next month for the budget- things been tight!
 
I think that if your rear O2 was bad you'd get a bad rear O2 code; but I'm with Drew- no code, add a bunch of fuel system cleaner, get a code, blame the cleaner. Most (?) newer cats are 3 way, so they both oxidize (add oxygen to) unburned HC and reduce (take oxygen from) NOx, but it has to alternate between these actions to be successful at both. It could be that the fuel system cleaner pushed the exhaust stream one way or the other so that the cat either was at max O2 storage (heavy NOx in the exhaust) or max O2 depletion (heavy HC in the exhaust) and unable to function correctly. Run the tank out, _stop_ with the fuel treatment, clear the codes again and see what happens.

Unless your cat is plugged, nothing seriously bad will happen with the bad (?) cat (unless you have to get a smog check) so you can wait it out.
 
Originally posted by porterdog:
[QB] I think that if your rear O2 was bad you'd get a bad rear O2 code;.....
snip----
Whew, I might have a little better handle on it I think... Man could you explain how the O2 and Cat work,...> On my truck 1997 Tacoma, I am told by the dealer that it is a problem for the Cats and the O2's to go out early... No one has had the rear come in but all say the front O2 goes about 60-80K on my year truck... They also say the Cats tend not to last too long.

Well The first one I kept limping around since 60-80K with the check engine light... and dumped a lot of cleaner and anyway they both died around
300K when I replaced them... Since then I have had problems with the O2 and the CAT mainly...
This time I went with a FRONT TOYOTA O2 hoping not to have a problem, and the cat is a HD one IMO and I dont know I only see to my eyes it is quality IMO....

Anyhow, besides keeping the Coolant good, the Termos good, new plugs cap and sound wires, the filter clear and good fuel (name brand) what ELSE can I do to get the most from the CAT and O2?
Also if it's not too much trouble, can you explain in a little more detail how the system works.. ie about shutting on and off (Cat or O2 or both?)
 
quote:

Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:

Anyhow, besides keeping the Coolant good, the Termos good, new plugs cap and sound wires, the filter clear and good fuel (name brand) what ELSE can I do to get the most from the CAT and O2?
Also if it's not too much trouble, can you explain in a little more detail how the system works.. ie about shutting on and off (Cat or O2 or both?)


Honestly, I'd ease up on the fuel treatment. Various things can poison cats and O2 sensors, and while the fuel treatments are undoubtedly tested safe, they're tested at the manufacturers recommended dosage levels. More is not necessarily better.

As for your second question:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm

Think of your catcon as an oxygen bucket. When hydrocarbons (HC: unburned gas, running rich) enter the cat, oxygen is taken from the bucket to OXIDIZE the HC breaking it down into H2O (water) and CO2. The same thing happens with CO (carbon monoxide; very poisonous), adding an O to make CO2. Performing these two transformations empty the bucket of oxygen, but normally that's not a problem because the transformation of another gas in the exhaust helps to fill the bucket by adding oxygen back.

NOx (oxides of Nitrogen) get stripped of thier O molecules (REDUCED) which are then stored in the cat, and N2 (pure nitrogen) shoots out the back of your car (along with the H2O and CO2 from above).

The computer in your truck looks at the signal from the front O2 sensor to continuously adjust the fuel injected up and down, so that you're always alternating between rich (HC in the exhaust, taking O2 from the bucket) and lean (NOx in the exhaust, adding O2 to the bucket). This action keeps the bucket from getting too full or too empty. What I was suggesting above is that maybe the too-high amounts of fuel treatment in your gas may have driven your NOx emissions so high that your O2 bucket may have gotten full and the cat would no longer able to store O2.

The computer looks at the signals from both O2 sensors; if the cat is working right and storing O2 then the rear sensor will see less O2 than the front sensor. Your code is a result of the front and rear sensors seeing close to the same amount of O2 in the exhaust. Since the computer also monitors the function of BOTH of the O2 sensors and you're not getting any codes related to them, your cat is either sleeping (I hope so!) or really dead. The only way to know is to run the highly treated fuel out, refill with normal gas (No Treatment!) get the codes reset, and see what happens. If it was me, I'd put a couple hundred miles on the truck after getting new fuel but before getting the codes reset to blow any garbage out of the cat and maybe wake her up.

hth,
Robert
 
quote:

Originally posted by porterdog:
Honestly, I'd ease up on the fuel treatment. Various things can poison cats and O2 sensors, and while the fuel treatments are undoubtedly tested safe, they're tested at the manufacturers recommended dosage levels. More is not necessarily better.
-*-*


I understand!
There are though plenty of treatments that are specifically BAD for the car, mine is not one... and yes it can be used overdosages and all you do is waste product and get more power to a limited point.
Now, this is also not saying that I continued. No, in fact I have stopped a couple days so far and I have with about a 1/2 tank fill-up when the light original triggered, put a few hundred miles on there and THIS morning the LIGHT triggered again. I have not had it checked... I was planning on running with more cleaner again.
HOWEVER - today JUST after the light came on, MAN I'll tell you my truck seemed to have a lot more power and SPUNK. Squeal the tires a couple times on accident, MPG came up midway from before and the low since the problem--- and power with no additives
 
Well change of GAS station and SEVERAL tanks of GAS and doing 80-95+ wherever I could....
And my light for now anyway, turned itself off.
Hummmm... I was yelling at my wife and the light turned off. Maybe this is a sign that my argument was RIGHT, Hugh!

Anyway my light is off for now, and hopefull for good. Only time will tell. But I will tell you this, after it clicked off, I immediately started getting better MPG, IMMEDIATE.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Robbie Alexander:
-*-*-*
Anyway my light is off for now, and hopefull for good. Only time will tell. But I will tell you this, after it clicked off, I immediately started getting better MPG, IMMEDIATE.


Well now its BACK on again. And just the opposite happened... When the light clicked on today, the truck has seemed to have more power and runs smoother...
 
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