+P & +P+ Ammo

[BlueOvalFitter]

What is your opinions on this type of ammo? I do have some 9mm 124 gr. +P HST loaded in one magazine for a 5906 and an SD9. The other 2 magazines for each of these guns are loaded with HORNADY 135 gr. +P Critical Duty Flexlock and 124 gr. HYDRA-SHOK. Those are the only 9mm guns I have +P ammo in. I would only use +P ammo for personal defense, never target shooting. All of my other guns are loaded with standard pressure ammo (9mm, .40 S&W, SIG .357, .357 Magnum).

 

[MuzzleFlash40]

Others opinions may differ, but i'm not a fan of +P ammo unless you also train with it. My duty ammo is Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. They offer it both +p and non +p, but the shooting characteristics will not be the same. IT may not be the same as training with a .38 and shooting .357 mags, but the little bit of difference could mean a lot when it counts. Just my 2 cents.

 

[skyactiv]

The 5906 is a duty gun and I bet many police departments used Federal 115 grain +P+ ammo in it back in the 90's. I prefer fast +P ammo because it expands more reliably than standard ammo. If I had to use my gun in self defense because I was in imminent danger, I want a round that reliably expands and dumps the energy into the assailant which +P and +P+ ammo helps to provide rather than the round not expanding, going through the assailant and potentially harming an innocent bystander.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40

Others opinions may differ, but i'm not a fan of +P ammo unless you also train with it. My duty ammo is Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. They offer it both +p and non +p, but the shooting characteristics will not be the same. It may not be the same as training with a .38 and shooting .357 mags, but the little bit of difference could mean a lot when it counts. Just my 2 cents.

It depends on the gun. If you're shooting +P or +P+ in a Glock 26, or something similar that's small and light, then perhaps yes. But if your carry gun is a full sized Stainless 9 MM, like a Smith & Wesson 5900 Series, or a full sized CZ-75 P-01, it's not going to matter. These all steel guns come in at over 40 ounces. Even more when loaded with a 15 round magazine. The added recoil of a +P+ round is barely noticeable over FMJ 115 Gr. practice rounds.

 

[KCJeep]

I have shot a lot of both and will continue to do so. It depends on caliber though. I carry nothing but +P+ in 9mm because I want all the shock I can get, and +P+ rounds have been proven as very effective in 9mm shootings. In 45 I don't bother with +P. In compact guns the recoil difference is usually noticeable between target fare and carry loads, that is why we should practice with carry ammo once in a while.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

What is your opinions on this type of ammo? I do have some 9mm 124 gr. +P HST loaded in one magazine for a 5906 and an SD9. The other 2 magazines for each of these guns are loaded with HORNADY 135 gr. +P Critical Duty Flexlock and 124 gr. HYDRA-SHOK. Those are the only 9mm guns I have +P ammo in. I would only use +P ammo for personal defense, never target shooting. All of my other guns are loaded with standard pressure ammo (9mm, .40 S&W, SIG .357, .357 Magnum).

I can't figure out why you've got magazines loaded with ammo that you haven't actually shot, or why you've got them loaded with all different kinds of ammo. If you haven't verified that a particular ammo works flawlessly in your gun, with every magazine, then you shouldn't depend on that ammo for self defense. It's a poor idea to presume that it'll work. I like the 5906. Reliable, strong, accurate. My first gun. Carried it as part of my flight gear during Desert Storm. But despite its reliability, and the fact that it's handled every ammo I've loaded it with, I would not bet my life on that gun until I verified that the ammo worked properly. What you've got here, is a bunch of magazines loaded for the range. Have fun. Once you verify that they work, then load your gun for defense. Right now, you're just guessing...and the stakes might be your life. Finally, how well you shoot matters more than tiny performance differences in ammo. Pick a good ammo, verify function, and be done. Watching you obsess over ammo is like listening to a debate on whether Exxon 92 is as good as Sunoco 93, or should you go with the Shell nitrogen enriched? In the same car, the differences are minor, and all the while, the driver is what really matters...

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Astro14

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

What is your opinions on this type of ammo? I do have some 9mm 124 gr. +P HST loaded in one magazine for a 5906 and an SD9. The other 2 magazines for each of these guns are loaded with HORNADY 135 gr. +P Critical Duty Flexlock and 124 gr. HYDRA-SHOK. Those are the only 9mm guns I have +P ammo in. I would only use +P ammo for personal defense, never target shooting. All of my other guns are loaded with standard pressure ammo (9mm, .40 S&W, SIG .357, .357 Magnum).

I can't figure out why you've got magazines loaded with ammo that you haven't actually shot, or why you've got them loaded with all different kinds of ammo. If you haven't verified that a particular ammo works flawlessly in your gun, with every magazine, then you shouldn't depend on that ammo for self defense. It's a poor idea to presume that it'll work. I like the 5906. Reliable, strong, accurate. My first gun. Carried it as part of my flight gear during Desert Storm. But despite its reliability, and the fact that it's handled every ammo I've loaded it with, I would not bet my life on that gun until I verified that the ammo worked properly. What you've got here, is a bunch of magazines loaded for the range. Have fun. Once you verify that they work, then load your gun for defense. Right now, you're just guessing...and the stakes might be your life. Finally, how well you shoot matters more than tiny performance differences in ammo. Pick a good ammo, verify function, and be done. Watching you obsess over ammo is like listening to a debate on whether Exxon 92 is as good as Sunoco 93, or should you go with the Shell nitrogen enriched? In the same car, the differences are minor, and all the while, the driver is what really matters...

I didn't ask your advice on what I SHOULD CHOOSE for my personal defense! I asked your opinion on +P and +P+. What I have in my magazines is my conclusion after testing/shooting JHP ammo! THANK YOU!

 

[NateDN10]

It depends on the caliber whether +P is an actual thing - I know for 9mm there's a standard for what +P actually means and therefore gun manufacturers can test against it. However +P+ isn't ever a real, industry standard, documented thing. I'd have no issue using +P ammo for defensive purposes in my gun if it performed well and was reliable for me. However there are also plenty of standard pressure offerings that perform well.

 

[Panzerman]

My opinion on +P+ ammo is it's a gimmick to sell suckers that want to pay a insane amount of money for a gimmick bullet. I agree with Astro14. It's more important to hit what your shooting at and be used to the gun and ammo that feeds flawless then being the coolest kid on the block with Neato ammo.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The only +P ammo I have is in 38 Special because I want something between regular 38 and 357 Magnum in my small revolvers.

 

[Nyogtha]

I practice with .38 Super +P ammo, settled on this before .40 S&W came out and still don't have any strong motivation to switch. I've never purchased +P ammo of any other caliber, and I've never purchased any +P+ ammo of any caliber.

 

[Panzerman]

I could see +P in a .38 Special because they are on the low side of power but I don't think you gain much in the 9 mm. The Florida Highway Patrol uses the .45 GAP and the officer was chatting with told me it was pathetic. One of the instructors accidentally shot himself in the hand and they found the bullet on the ground. I kinda feel bad for them being sold on such a anemic round.

 

[KCJeep]

He said 38 Super not Special. I love the Super! What a fantastic round I wish it were more widely available. In 38 Super the +P is actually part of the cartridge name so you have to pay attention to ballistics to see what kind of loading you're getting. The Geco brand is a favorite and does about 1400 fps out of a full size 1911. Many other loads also marked +P will barely crack 1100. The 38 Super is very similar to a .357 Sig in ballistics but it is a much better match for the 1911 for which is was designed. My Underwood 9mm +P+ ammo does close to 1300, which is close to 38 Super, which is why I buy it. While there are no "magic" calibers, numerous studies have shown a high velocity 9mm/38 caliber to be the most effective in actual shootings. I figure it's not coincidence.

 

[Nyogtha]

Poster before me said .38 Special, unsure who if anyone Panzerman's comments may have been addressed to. I reckon my Remington ammo is good enough at 1215 FPS, 130 gr FMJ. I cleared out a gun shop clearancing it a number of years ago. I shoot it in Astras, although not everyone agrees with this practice. .380 for inside the house, .38 Super+P FMJ in the event a vehicle is involved is my philosophy. Don't want high risk of penetrations outside the walls of my home.

 

[901Memphis]

Well +P+ is non standard, so you must really trust your ammo manufacture to be making stuff that won't blow up your gun, although if it's like the duty grade +P+ ammo it will be around 20-25% over pressure which most modern guns can tolerate. In general when discussing the pressure it's meaningless without discussing the projectile being propelled. In the case of the HST, they perform perfectly at standard pressure and gain minimal velocity with the +P variety, so it's unnecessary, but some projectiles like the 124 Gold dot perform even better at higher velocities than standard pressure can offer. All of the HST are great, you can't go wrong with any of the 5 flavors in 9mm.

 

[Ammofirst]

I always buy, carry, practice, with increased velocity handgun ammo. +p / +p+ / 10mm / 45 super / 357 sig. Have not tried 460 Rowland yet, maybe this summer. I do prefer full size steel pistols which tames the recoil quote a bit. For people considering this type of ammo please choose only High quality pistols with good chamber support. Study and read up before hand.

 

[KCJeep]

I thought Panzerman was responding to your mention of 38 Super. Maybe he was talking in general terms. The Remington Super ammo is good stuff. So is Aguila which I can usually find cheaper. Both run in the 1200's which is good target ammo, but I bought the Super to be Super so I often run the hot Geco stuff (which groups better than anything I have tried by the way) and my carry ammo is Underwood. The Sig hollow points available in Super are high quality and run right at 1250 fps good match for medium loaded target ammo. Some Super ammo is not one whit hotter than 9mm which is dumb because the cartridges potential is high. Federal and PPU for example are stupidly tame.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Originally Posted By: Astro14

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

What is your opinions on this type of ammo? I do have some 9mm 124 gr. +P HST loaded in one magazine for a 5906 and an SD9. The other 2 magazines for each of these guns are loaded with HORNADY 135 gr. +P Critical Duty Flexlock and 124 gr. HYDRA-SHOK. Those are the only 9mm guns I have +P ammo in. I would only use +P ammo for personal defense, never target shooting. All of my other guns are loaded with standard pressure ammo (9mm, .40 S&W, SIG .357, .357 Magnum).

I can't figure out why you've got magazines loaded with ammo that you haven't actually shot, or why you've got them loaded with all different kinds of ammo. If you haven't verified that a particular ammo works flawlessly in your gun, with every magazine, then you shouldn't depend on that ammo for self defense. It's a poor idea to presume that it'll work. I like the 5906. Reliable, strong, accurate. My first gun. Carried it as part of my flight gear during Desert Storm. But despite its reliability, and the fact that it's handled every ammo I've loaded it with, I would not bet my life on that gun until I verified that the ammo worked properly. What you've got here, is a bunch of magazines loaded for the range. Have fun. Once you verify that they work, then load your gun for defense. Right now, you're just guessing...and the stakes might be your life. Finally, how well you shoot matters more than tiny performance differences in ammo. Pick a good ammo, verify function, and be done. Watching you obsess over ammo is like listening to a debate on whether Exxon 92 is as good as Sunoco 93, or should you go with the Shell nitrogen enriched? In the same car, the differences are minor, and all the while, the driver is what really matters...

I didn't ask your advice on what I SHOULD CHOOSE for my personal defense! I asked your opinion on +P and +P+. What I have in my magazines is my conclusion after testing/shooting JHP ammo! THANK YOU!

Everything he said was correct. Your numerous ammo quests are a waste of time and money unless your goal is to waste time and money.

 

[billt460]

The biggest problem with all of this "+P" and "+P+" ammo, are those symbols of ammunition "power" have become so diluted over the years, they have become all but meaningless. Except in a direct comparison to one another. For example, "+P" .38 Special loads today are in fact weaker, and generate less pressure than regular .38 Special loads did back in the 70's. SAAMI has been steadily dropping pressure standards over the last several decades since they've established them. Anyone who is older, and shoots 10 MM Auto or .38 Super can easily attest to this. When the 10 MM was first introduced in the early 80's in the Bren Ten, it was loaded by the factories substantially hotter than it is today. It's much the same with .38 Super loads from back in the 60's. They were coming off the line loaded extremely HOT. Today they're watered down to pathetic levels. This practice has filtered down to most Magnum rifle calibers as well. And if you check older loading manuals from the early 70's, (even one's from the same companies), and compare them to what's being published today, all the loads are substantially weaker. And I can say for certain it's not because of any difference in testing equipment. You can feel it in your shoulder, and see it on a chronograph. I believe you have the legal profession to thank for most all of it.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

I thought Panzerman was responding to your mention of 38 Super. Maybe he was talking in general terms. The Remington Super ammo is good stuff. So is Aguila which I can usually find cheaper. Both run in the 1200's which is good target ammo, but I bought the Super to be Super so I often run the hot Geco stuff (which groups better than anything I have tried by the way) and my carry ammo is Underwood. The Sig hollow points available in Super are high quality and run right at 1250 fps good match for medium loaded target ammo. Some Super ammo is not one whit hotter than 9mm which is dumb because the cartridges potential is high. Federal and PPU for example are stupidly tame.

I purchased my Remington ammo on clearance, Since I shoot it in Astra 400's originally chambered for 9 mm Largo, it's an excellent fit. Compare the Remington .38 Super +P FMJ stuff I use ballistics data [130 gr FMJ, 1215 ft/sec, 426 ft-lb force] to the Wikipedia ballistics data for 9mm Largo [127 gr (8 g) FMJ, 1,167 ft/s (356 m/s), 384 ft-lb force (521 J)]. Yet there are still many who moan modern .38 Super +P is too hot for these older interwar production pistols, telling everyone on the internet they'll blow up in your face if you fire modern .38 Super +P in them. Yet no one can cite such a case occuring, although some later Star model pistols manufactured for .38 Super cartridges were problematic. As you note, there are hotter and not so hot .38 Super +P loads available (reflected on the Ballistics 101 chart). I feel like I'm Goldilocks and found the "just right" commercial load for the model pistol I'm using it in. I don't want to shoot anything hotter. I like FMJ in my .38 Super +P for penetration such as if a vehicle could be involved.