+P & +P+ Ammo

[Nyogtha]

Here's an Astra 400 digesting .38 Super +P ammo just fine, but look at the comments below the video to see what I'm referring to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTzwaMua6o

 

[KCJeep]

That's an interesting old gun right there. That Remington Super ammo you cleaned up on was very high quality stuff when I used it. Nickel plated even. Usually a little pricey you did good.

 

[Nyogtha]

Longer video, but shooting 9mm Largo ammo. No mention of .38 Super +P in the video.

It also functions well as a hand-to-hand combat weapon in lieu of brass knucks! Straight blowback design makes it quite heavy, but point of balance is far less nose-heavy than a 1911 style pistol. I don't have small hands, but I have a light bone structure. My fingers are like pencils instead of sausages. So I've found in general European designs fit my hand better. Nothing, but nothing, is better in my hand than a real P08 Luger though. But I don't want to run +P or +P+ rounds in mine. A Finnish or Swedish Lahti is interesting but the long recoil reminds me of a C96 in staying out of its way. One reason I like the P08 toggle action that eventually doomed its first line status when the P38 came out.

 

[KCJeep]

Great video. Nicely done and he clearly likes and appreciates the older "classic" stuff. I do too... and it sounds like you do as well. All I have for truly old weapons are family pass downs. I am a big fan of the 1911 although all mine feature the common modernizations.

 

[Nyogtha]

Yep that video well illustrates both the knockdown energy and penetration performance of the original 9mm Largo FMJ cartridge, so I'm happy with the midding hot ballistics of the Reminton .38 Super +P FMJ performace with only 10% more muzzle energy than the original catridge ballistics figures. I like items with a history, even if that history isn't really known. But I classify myself more as an accumulator than a true investment banker mentality or museum curator collector as I buy things to shoot. I was fortunate to be gainfully employed in the mid to late 80's when South Texas experienced 20% to 25% unemployment during the oil price crash from $50 / bbl to single digits at the height of the Iran - Iraq war. Gun shows were really a lot of fun with room for haggling back then. I haven't been to a gun show since the 90's.

 

[KCJeep]

I used to go all the time. Like you got out of the habit. Went to one last year for the first time in what seemed like forever and was not impressed.

 

[HouseTiger]

FWIW --- Since +P+ was brought up more than once in this thread, the tech department at Federal Cartridge will tell you, as they have told me over the years, there are essentially three levels for 9m/m Parabellum pressures within the 'industry' 9m/m - plain jane stuff runs at @35,000psi 9m/m +P - which is also NATO spec, and has been loaded at that level in European military ammo since the early 1900s, runs @ 38,500 psi 9m/m +P+ - actually does have a spec, but it's not SAAMI since it is not marketed as a 'civilian' round, but was originally intended to be limited to military and law enforcement (usually). The Federal 9BPLE 115gr JHP +P+ runs @ 40,000 psi. First transition from revolvers to semi autos, we had the 9BLPE load issued. It's hot, but the S&W 59 series pistols handled it without a glitch. It's NOT a bonded bullet, so the perps that got hit with it had the bullet come apart and cause all sorts of wound damage. Daily carry is a Glock 19, and I run all carry mags through it for qualification. It gets reloaded with the same Federal round. You can also buy this at a comparatively bargain price at SG Ammo for $15.00 a box of 50. It's current production. https://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-9mm-p-federal-115-grain-hollow-point-ammo-9bple

 

[billt460]

No doubt about it, Federal 9BPLE is a fantastic 9 MM load.

 

[bunnspecial]

I know that this has been mentioned, but just so that we're clear ALL 38 Super ammo is +P. It's part of the full name of the cartridge. And, yes, modern commercial loadings-at least from American makers-delivers very little more velocity than a comparable 9mm load. If you hand load it, you can get it up to original 1930s velocities pretty easily(I like Blue Dot) but it's hard to find good stuff on the shelf now outside boutique makers. One of the arguments I've heard is that 38 Super is physically the same size as the old 38 ACP cartridge(in fact part of the reason it's always designated +P is because of this) and the ammo makers are afraid someone is going to shoot it in a 38 ACP gun. Whatever the case, $35/box these days basically does get you 9mm in a longer case.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: hatt

Your numerous ammo quests are a waste of time and money unless your goal is to waste time and money.

Nah, I just like to get YOUR blood pressure up! I learned very early in life that you will NEVER learn anything unless you ask. And, some say, the only stupid Q? there is is the one you don't ask. There is no such thing as a dumb question". A woman, recounting a story about an old man who used to answer all her "stupid questions", explained "Chica, if you ask a question it makes you look stupid for 5 minutes – but if you don't ask – you stay stupid for fifty years, so always ask questions in your life". Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their advice, suggestions, and positive criticism. I have never claimed to know everything there is to know about ammo, and I "WILL" continue to keep asking about it, no matter what!

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

What is your opinions on this type of ammo? I do have some 9mm 124 gr. +P HST loaded in one magazine for a 5906 and an SD9. The other 2 magazines for each of these guns are loaded with HORNADY 135 gr. +P Critical Duty Flexlock and 124 gr. HYDRA-SHOK. Those are the only 9mm guns I have +P ammo in. I would only use +P ammo for personal defense, never target shooting. All of my other guns are loaded with standard pressure ammo (9mm, .40 S&W, SIG .357, .357 Magnum).

Handguns poke holes. Temporary cavitation doesn't matter. Unless you need the power factor to make a class in gun games, or the ammo you want is only available in +p+ (for example, 127gr t series 9mm from yesteryear), I see no point.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Originally Posted By: hatt

Your numerous ammo quests are a waste of time and money unless your goal is to waste time and money.

Nah, I just like to get YOUR blood pressure up! I learned very early in life that you will NEVER learn anything unless you ask. And, some say, the only stupid Q? there is is the one you don't ask. There is no such thing as a dumb question". A woman, recounting a story about an old man who used to answer all her "stupid questions", explained "Chica, if you ask a question it makes you look stupid for 5 minutes – but if you don't ask – you stay stupid for fifty years, so always ask questions in your life". Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their advice, suggestions, and positive criticism. I have never claimed to know everything there is to know about ammo, and I "WILL" continue to keep asking about it, no matter what!

I used to be very similar. Still am. I love to shoot things and learn for myself. Its a valuable thing, to be your own expert. I have people like Gary Roberts on speed dial any time I want to discuss something involving terminal ballistics...and I still like to shoot stuff myself. However, I probably learned the most about practical application from friends of mine who kill people for a living, doing god's work for our country. They value certain things in a bullet, but hst vs gold dot vs critical duty...doesn't really factor, and m855 vs sost or what not? They just shoot people until they die, and that's that. In "the real world", that's how it works...but like you, I enjoy nerding out over the last 1% of terminal mojo. My advice is to become a hunter. Organic, healthy meat, and relatively risk free understanding of how bullets kill things, as well as the priceless aspect of "being your own expert".

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Ws6

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Originally Posted By: hatt

Your numerous ammo quests are a waste of time and money unless your goal is to waste time and money.

Nah, I just like to get YOUR blood pressure up! I learned very early in life that you will NEVER learn anything unless you ask. And, some say, the only stupid Q? there is is the one you don't ask. There is no such thing as a dumb question". A woman, recounting a story about an old man who used to answer all her "stupid questions", explained "Chica, if you ask a question it makes you look stupid for 5 minutes – but if you don't ask – you stay stupid for fifty years, so always ask questions in your life". Anyway, I want to thank everyone for their advice, suggestions, and positive criticism. I have never claimed to know everything there is to know about ammo, and I "WILL" continue to keep asking about it, no matter what!

I used to be very similar. Still am. I love to shoot things and learn for myself. Its a valuable thing, to be your own expert. I have people like Gary Roberts on speed dial any time I want to discuss something involving terminal ballistics...and I still like to shoot stuff myself. However, I probably learned the most about practical application from friends of mine who kill people for a living, doing god's work for our country. They value certain things in a bullet, but hst vs gold dot vs critical duty...doesn't really factor, and m855 vs sost or what not? They just shoot people until they die, and that's that. In "the real world", that's how it works...but like you, I enjoy nerding out over the last 1% of terminal mojo. My advice is to become a hunter. Organic, healthy meat, and relatively risk free understanding of how bullets kill things, as well as the priceless aspect of "being your own expert".

WS6, great advice there. I was an infantry/combat engineer soldier in the US ARMY. Anyway, I am interested in hand gun ammo to be educated in case someone were to ever be like me, asking Q?'s. That way, I will too, be educated. It's like any job you prepare for. You must know every aspect to know what you're doing to carry out your work correctly. If you're practicing to be a Neurosurgeon and you don't understand how a part of the brain works, will you just sit there and fake it? NO! You will ask Q?'s. I don't know everything about ammo there is to know, so I ask Q?'s. Is there anything wrong with wanting to learn? If your child is doing his/her math homework and they need help with a fraction. Do you expect them to put down any old answer? Or, would you want them to ask for help? Please, understand, I'm basically just a student of ammo and want to become a teacher some day. That's my analogy to this situation.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Ws6

I used to be very similar..... However, I probably learned the most about practical application from friends of mine who kill people for a living, doing god's work for our country. They value certain things in a bullet, but hst vs gold dot vs critical duty...doesn't really factor, and m855 vs sost or what not? They just shoot people until they die, and that's that. In "the real world", that's how it works...

I couldn't agree more with you here. Too much is being made of too little. Especially when you read about the amount of rounds that are fired per incident, compared to the amount of times they connect. Let alone connect with a vital area. Any of the top defense loads are fine. Including Federal BPLE that's being around for over 2 decades, and is still very successful at killing bad people. If people made as much over shot placement, as they do the latest and greatest ammunition, they could probably shoot people with FMJ, and establish a higher shot to shot kill ratio. Let's face it's not the best, but the military has been doing it successfully for decades.