Overseas flight question

[LDB]

I'm reading a book with one part involving a flight from NYC to Zurich in a private jet. No mention of what plane it is. But one part makes a big deal of having to schedule 3 pilots since it is an overseas flight. I'd think 2 are required, and maybe 3 depending on just what plane, but what are the rules/regs regarding number of pilots for an overseas flight, US to EUR?

 

[Hall]

It might just be the jet owner's "requirement", maybe based on flight time. It only appears to be an 8-hour flight so I wouldn't think that exceeds a limit.... but I now see an FAA limitation of 8 hours. So any delay could put them over that limit.

 

[Kira]

I've heard the industry has, "IRPs", International Relief Pilots.

 

[1444buicking]

Older planes with less electronics required more crew (e.g. engineer).

 

[edyvw]

Older planes with less electronics required more crew (e.g. engineer).

On intercontinental flights 3 pilots are standard. @Astro14 can shed some light here.

 

[skyactiv]

LAX to Melbourne Australia is a Long flight. I wonder how they staff flight attendants and pilots. Never been to Australia.

 

[kschachn]

LAX to Melbourne Australia is a Long flight. I wonder how they staff flight attendants and pilots. Never been to Australia.

Staff as in on the aircraft itself? Or at the termination ends of the flights?

Here is how it is done on the aircraft itself:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/hidden-spaces-on-planes

 

[Hall]

I wonder how they staff flight attendants and pilots.

They have beds (or cots).

 

[Astro14]

On intercontinental flights 3 pilots are standard. @Astro14 can shed some light here.

There are three FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations) under which an airplane can be operated.

Part 91 - General.

Part 121 - What we would know as Major Airlines

Part 135 - Charter and smaller operations

In parts 121 and 135 there are limits to the duty day (how long a pilot is on duty) and the flight time (block to block is flight time).

Harrison Ford’s Gulfstream is likely operated under Part 91, because he owns it, and he isn’t a regularly scheduled operator, and so, those pilots can be on duty, and at the controls, for as long as Mr. Ford wants.

But for 121 and 135 operators, Pilots are limited to 14 hours on duty and 8 hours of flight time. Scheduled. Flight beyond that requires a 3rd pilot. Flight beyond 12 hours requires 4 pilots. Beyond 16 hours (and yes, there are some) requires 5.

So, EWR -ZRH is about 8 hours block time. But ZRH-EWR is closer to 9 hours. So, a 121 or 135 operator is going to have 3 pilots on that flight, to cover the return flight. Doesn’t matter if it’s a Gulfstream or a 767, flights over 8 hours need to have 3 pilots.

Heaven help the operator who plays games with that rule. Cut it close, and get delayed taxiing out, you just became illegal. A major Airline scheduled London - ATL years ago as 7:58, based on zero taxi delays and an unrealistic cruise speed (VMo) So, they crewed it at 2 pilots, because it was “under 8 hours”.

Many pilots would just taxi back to the gate if they encountered delays, canceling the flight. The flight was chronically delayed, with the specious planning assumptions that went into that 7:58 flight time.

The pilot’s union sued. The FAA weighed in, the airline was fined, and that flight has 3 pilots now…

 

[Cujet]

We always used the 8 hour rule for crew on our Gulfstream jets. It was common to do 12 hour flights, so 3 crew was the norm.

Don’t forget that the FAR’s and destination laws apply.

 

[LDB]

Sounds like the book is correct and they properly had 3 pilots even though a private corporate jet.

 

[y_p_w]

I was trying to work the math on how it’s done with three pilots over 10 hours where it maxes at 8 hours. I guess they stagger the times where the third pilot comes in and gives another pilot some time off.

 

[4WD]

My recent UA flight - transatlantic and nothing like LAX to MEL flights I have taken where you don’t see anyone resting (hidden bunks) - 1A was not available in advance. Once flying they started to use it for crew rest … Weds UA flight - grabbed 1L …

 

[4WD]

Staff as in on the aircraft itself? Or at the termination ends of the flights?

Here is how it is done on the aircraft itself:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/hidden-spaces-on-planes

That picture is a Dreamliner - what you’ll notice onboard them - is that the center over head bins will end near the bulkhead when that sleeper is built in …

 

[Astro14]

My recent UA flight - transatlantic and nothing like LAX to MEL flights I have taken where you don’t see anyone resting (hidden bunks) - 1A was not available in advance. Once flying they started to use it for crew rest … Weds UA flight - grabbed 1L …

That's how the 767-300 (and now -400) crew rest works - Polaris 1A. You will see the tracks for the curtain in the overhead bins, and a tiny closet aft of the lav, forward of 1A, where the curtain is stowed when not in use.

 

[Skippy722]

There are three FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations) under which an airplane can be operated.

Part 91 - General.

Part 121 - What we would know as Major Airlines

Part 135 - Charter and smaller operations

In parts 121 and 135 there are limits to the duty day (how long a pilot is on duty) and the flight time (block to block is flight time).

Harrison Ford’s Gulfstream is likely operated under Part 91, because he owns it, and he isn’t a regularly scheduled operator, and so, those pilots can be on duty, and at the controls, for as long as Mr. Ford wants.

But for 121 and 135 operators, Pilots are limited to 14 hours on duty and 8 hours of flight time. Scheduled. Flight beyond that requires a 3rd pilot. Flight beyond 12 hours requires 4 pilots. Beyond 16 hours (and yes, there are some) requires 5.

So, EWR -ZRH is about 8 hours block time. But ZRH-EWR is closer to 9 hours. So, a 121 or 135 operator is going to have 3 pilots on that flight, to cover the return flight. Doesn’t matter if it’s a Gulfstream or a 767, flights over 8 hours need to have 3 pilots.

Heaven help the operator who plays games with that rule. Cut it close, and get delayed taxiing out, you just became illegal. A major Airline scheduled London - ATL years ago as 7:58, based on zero taxi delays and an unrealistic cruise speed (VMo) So, they crewed it at 2 pilots, because it was “under 8 hours”.

Many pilots would just taxi back to the gate if they encountered delays, canceling the flight. The flight was chronically delayed, with the specious planning assumptions that went into that 7:58 flight time.

The pilot’s union sued. The FAA weighed in, the airline was fined, and that flight has 3 pilots now…

What do the pilots do on those long flights? I’m not trying to imply y’all don’t do anything, I’m just genuinely curious. I feel like I’d have a hard time not enjoying the view, assuming good flying conditions.

 

[y_p_w]

What do the pilots do on those long flights? I’m not trying to imply y’all don’t do anything, I’m just genuinely curious. I feel like I’d have a hard time not enjoying the view, assuming good flying conditions.

 

[Astro14]

Um…yes, we rest…but I think the question was: what are we doing on the flight deck?

When we are over the ocean, we are watching the radar, watching the flight performance, updating turbulence models (via our weather vendor, and a different vendor supplied app called “skypath”), talking to other aircraft, communicating with air traffic control via SATCOM/Datalink, updating weather at our diversion/alternate airports, checking weather at our destination, planning the arrival, and, perhaps most importantly, verifying fuel/time performance at each waypoint.

Some crews don’t do a good job of the latter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

 

[y_p_w]

Um…yes, we rest…but I think the question was: what are we doing on the flight deck?

When we are over the ocean, we are watching the radar, watching the flight performance, updating turbulence models (via our weather vendor, and a different vendor supplied app called “skypath”), talking to other aircraft, communicating with air traffic control via SATCOM/Datalink, updating weather at our diversion/alternate airports, checking weather at our destination, planning the arrival, and, perhaps most importantly, verifying fuel/time performance at each waypoint.

Some crews don’t do a good job of the latter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

I've been following enough pilots who claim that they've mostly just button pushers these days. I think the phrase used was "trained monkeys" like how NASA used to train chimpanzees to push the right buttons. But obviously it's a lot more complicated than that. I remember being in a 737 landing in heavy rain with stiff crosswinds, and I'm sure a chimp couldn't do that.

 

[Cujet]

Gulfstream jets are often configured with crew rest areas. The size is dictated by need. Our older G550 had a 7 foot long area that was wonderful to sleep in. As the seat would lie flat, and the mattress placed on top. Ultra comfortable and quiet. With multiple doors that closed off. One at the cabin bulkhead to keep the pax out, and two between the crew rest and the cockpit, as the cockpit can be noisy and of course the door for the crew rest area itself. Ours were not pocket doors, but real doors. Absolutely quiet.

In later models, they reduced the size of the area to about 4 feet long with a nice seat. Lying flat was still possible by emptying the closet and placing feet inside. That really does not work out as well.

A common flight for us was FL to Tahiti, about 10 hours, refuel and blast off to Sydney, Australia, another 8. 3 or even 4 crew, sometimes pre positioning a pilot in Tahiti. What's really cool is that the G650ER can physically make it non stop from the USA to Sydney.

The setup where the closet is used for a foot area. They are way too difficult to set up, as the closet is full of snacks, noisy...