Questions for commercial pilots RE current events

AZjeff

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In all of the media bloviating about parts falling off airplanes a couple of things are being talked about that have nothing to do with that and wondered if any of our commercial pilots would care to comment. Maybe the media has things all wrong.

First is this thing about the cockpit voice recorder over writing after 2 hours. Is this correct and if it is, in this digital age of limitless data storage what would be the reason for it? This flight lasted around 20 minutes or so, what are they talking about? My simple pea brain says record the entire flight and if it's a normal flight erase it whether it's 50 minutes or 5 hours.

Second is the talk of cameras in the cockpit. I heard it said the pilot's union is in hard opposition citing privacy concerns. Is this mass media looking for a story or is there something to it? What would be the pros and cons? One instant expert on TV said with pilots having hundreds of lives in their hands literally it makes sense to have a record of their actions.

Any comments appreciated and not trying to stir anything up. Something involved more that data collection?
 
I've heard first hand that pilots often nap behind the yoke. I've also heard that they'll eat meals off ceramic plates, which I was told, is against safety rules.
 
I will never support cameras in the cockpit, they don't need them.

FDR/CVR already provides investigators with enough information to find out what happened.

I was just watching a show ( Mayday or something similar on YouTube) about the ill-fated UPS B747 that crashed due to a fire on board ( lithium batteries ). Despite the thick/heavy black smoke in the flight deck ( which killed the Captain well before impact ), investigators know exactly what happened, and what the pilots were doing in the flight deck. The smoke was so thick that the FO couldn't see the radio panel.

They don't need cameras in the flight deck.
 
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I've heard first hand that pilots often nap behind the yoke. I've also heard that they'll eat meals off ceramic plates, which I was told, is against safety rules.
It's not illegal/ against safety rules to eat off of ceramic plates.

Controlled rest, up to 45 minutes, is allowed on non-augmented (2-man crew only, narrow body ) flights in Canada.

On the widebodies, they either have a designated bunk ( B777 ) or the airline uses a passenger seat for crew rest ( 3 or more pilots )
 
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Thick, heavy smoke : UPS B777

Like Swissair 111, land ****ASAP**** ( closest airport ).

Doha airport ( ILS, radar vectors for arrival, long runways ) would have shaved off 10 minutes flying time.

Once on final , and the ILS is armed ( however they call it in the 747 ) , the aircraft can auto land, which would have solved the thick smoke problem in the cockpit ( get the aircraft on the runway , ASAP ).

 
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I've heard first hand that pilots often nap behind the yoke. I've also heard that they'll eat meals off ceramic plates, which I was told, is against safety rules.
You’ve heard several things that are wrong…the napping is illegal in the US. Ceramic plates are not. I’ve heard first hand that people from New York are …. Does that make it true? Accurate? Relevant?
 
In this digital age, the breathtaking invasion of privacy by putting a camera in the cockpit and recording my every move, makes no sense.

There’s not a single accident accident that would’ve been solved by having the camera present, and when we were talking about a shortage of pilots, subjecting yourself to constant detailed surveillance for hours at a time makes no sense.

Surgeons kill about 100,000 people a year, where are the cries to put cameras in the operating room so we can see their mistakes?

The desire to put cameras in the cockpit is simply reflection of the Public fear of flying. If you wanna make the pilot job even more onerous than it is, then you’re going to simply increase the current pilot shortage that exists.

Let’s focus our efforts on things that actually reduce accidents.
 
I am not a proponent of camera's everywhere, but they have them in most places of employ now. So why not the cockpit?

No expectation of privacy at work. Camera's in most classrooms now. Police have body cams. Amtrak locomotive cockpit and some freight trains now have camera's. CCTV everywhere open to the public that people work - government, banks, etc. There are camera's in most operating rooms, although they are seldom archived.

Not commenting on whether there needed or not. Everything in the cockpit functionally is recorded, so I would agree they would add nothing really to the record. Its more a generalized societal question - whats special about the cockpit of an airplane?
 
I am not a proponent of camera's everywhere, but they have them in most places of employ now. So why not the cockpit?

No expectation of privacy at work. Camera's in most classrooms now. Police have body cams. Amtrak locomotive cockpit and some freight trains now have camera's. CCTV everywhere open to the public that people work - government, banks, etc. There are camera's in most operating rooms, although they are seldom archived.

Not commenting on whether there needed or not. Everything in the cockpit functionally is recorded, so I would agree they would add nothing really to the record. Its more a generalized societal question - whats special about the cockpit of an airplane?
From ALPA:

Investigating Airline Accidents: Cockpit Video is not the Answer

Cockpit Image Recorders (CIR) refers to the use of video cameras to record events in cockpits. Some proponents, including the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), advocate the installation of CIRs in commercial airliners. NTSB states that CIRs will benefit accident investigations and improve safety by providing new information for investigators.

While on the surface these may appear to be reasonable and justifiable claims, closer examination proves otherwise.

Current technology already provides investigators with the tools they need to determine the causes of airline accidents. The digital flight data recorder (DFDR) can record hundreds of parameters ranging from basic values such as altitude and speed, to details such as rudder pedal position, the position of every switch, and even the onset of smoke alarms in the lavatory. The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) provides an audible recording of voices, radio transmissions, and sounds in the cockpit. Investigators have a wide array of analytical techniques to tease information out of forensic evidence from the wreckage and other sources. While any accident will leave unresolved questions, the fact is that it is extremely rare for investigators not to be able to reach the findings and conclusions necessary to determine the cause of an accident. Video imaging would add virtually nothing of real value to the investigative process, and could, due to its subjective nature, actually lead investigators down the wrong path.

Contrary to popular opinion, compared to the precise data provided by the DFDR and forensic evidence, video imaging is an imprecise form of information. If an image shows a pilot’s hand moving toward a switch or moving his or her leg, that does not prove that he/she activated that switch or made an input to the rudder, whereas the DFDR will show the exact state of each switch, the exact amount of rudder input. Given the proper sensors, the DFDR can even distinguish between the pilot pushing on the pedal and the pedal pushing on the pilot–a distinction impossible to determine with video.

The goal of accident investigation is not to solve accidents for its own sake, but to improve safety by preventing accidents. Recent developments in data analysis (from accidents, from analysis of data recorded in a separate data recording system used primarily for maintenance, and from voluntary event reporting systems) have shifted the emphasis in accident prevention toward proactive "data mining" methodologies that are far more effective in accident prevention. Again, the precise accident data combed from DFDRs and other sources is far more useful than the problematic, subjective interpretation of video recordings.

While CIR will be of minimal value in analyzing and preventing accidents, it represents a major invasion of privacy for pilots. Having your every move recorded by video cameras is bad enough. Despite strong U.S. laws protecting CVR and CIR tapes from public access, they can be played in court in some circumstances. Tort lawyers will find video recordings to be an irresistible gimmick to increase damage claims for pain and suffering and for alleged negligence. Far worse, though, is the prospect of an accident outside U.S. territory. A CVR tape from a U.S. accident in Colombia has already been played in the US media after the network obtained a copy from sources there. Despite proposals to encrypt images, no encryption scheme is 100 percent secure, especially with continued advances in computer technology. Once out in the open, a video recording can be made available on the Web from anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day, forever. As one pilot bluntly stated, "I don’t want my spouse and children and grandchildren and a million strangers to be able to watch me die."

Pilots accepted cockpit voice recorders because they have proved to be valuable, and sometimes indispensable, additions to accident investigation and prevention. The combined data from CVRs, DFDRs and other forensic evidence has proved to be the right solution for modern accident investigation and prevention. CIR provides no significant additional benefits, while inflicting a far greater invasion of privacy than CVR recordings.

While onboard video cameras may prove to be of some limited use, such as allowing pilots to see exterior views of the aircraft, ALPA is opposed to any use of video recording in the cockpit.
 
TL;DR - Cockpit cameras are misleading. Better tools exist and are already in use. Every action is already recorded. They open pilots up to lawsuits based on bad information. They don’t improve safety.

Imagine that every wrench, every tool, in your drawer had sensors that tracked every movement. When you picked it up. What bolt it was applied to. When it was put back in the drawer. If it was misplaced.

And that data was recorded 24/7/365. It was downloaded and analyzed. Your movements were tracked, and you got calls, sometimes discipline, if your tool usage was off.

We already have that in the cockpit. Hundreds of parameters, including the operation of every system, every switch position, every control input, every flight parameter, are already recorded.

Far better than cameras. Unambiguous, actual data.

Cameras would add nothing to what we already have.

The call for cameras comes from ignorance of what is in use now.
 
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TL;DR - Cockpit cameras are misleading. Better tools exist and are already in use. Every action is already recorded. They open pilots up to lawsuits based on bad information. They don’t improve safety.

Imagine that every wrench, every tool, in your drawer had sensors that tracked every movement. When you picked it up. What bolt it was applied to. When it was put back in the drawer. If it was misplaced.

And that data was recorded 24/7/365. It was downloaded and analyzed. Your movements were tracked, and you got calls, sometimes discipline, if your tool usage was off.

We already have that in the cockpit. Hundreds of parameters, including the operation of every system, every switch position, every control input, every flight parameter, are already recorded.

Far better than cameras. Unambiguous, actual data.

Cameras would add nothing to what we already have.

The call for cameras comes from ignorance of what is in use now n
I am not disagreeing technically. My question was not a technical one. What especially should shield pilots from being recorded, when virtually everyone else is? Teachers and LEO are open to lawsuits or firing, yet are recorded doing everything. Same scenario generically.

As for your wrench analogy - if your job is a terminal - all of that and more is recorded. Every stroke, every move, how long since your last move - for a lot of workers.

I would advocate getting rid of them for everyone, if that was an option.
 
You’ve heard several things that are wrong…the napping is illegal in the US. Ceramic plates are not. I’ve heard first hand that people from New York are …. Does that make it true? Accurate? Relevant?
You're spot on. I should've used language which questioned what I heard.
 
I am not a proponent of camera's everywhere, but they have them in most places of employ now. So why not the cockpit?

No expectation of privacy at work. Camera's in most classrooms now. Police have body cams. Amtrak locomotive cockpit and some freight trains now have camera's. CCTV everywhere open to the public that people work - government, banks, etc. There are camera's in most operating rooms, although they are seldom archived.

Not commenting on whether there needed or not. Everything in the cockpit functionally is recorded, so I would agree they would add nothing really to the record. Its more a generalized societal question - whats special about the cockpit of an airplane?
Because they don’t need them. I have never read/heard any accident investigators complaining about the need for cameras in the flight deck.

Accident investigators can “ see” what pilots are doing by looking at the FDR data.

Surgeons don’t have FDR tracking every instrument they pick up, how they use it. Pilots do.

Not familiar with Trains , but they are probably “ single pilot” , and unless the operator talks to themselves ( audio recording ) , investigators may never know the whole “ picture” without cameras.

Up here, many police forces do not have body cameras.

What’s next, body cams for aircraft technicians?

The only time I am aware that accident investigators could not solve the cause of an accident was either because the “ black boxes” were destroyed, or never found.

Public safety is not at risk because cameras are not in cockpits ( balance between rights/privacy and safety ).
 
I am not disagreeing technically. My question was not a technical one. What especially should shield pilots from being recorded, when virtually everyone else is? Teachers and LEO are open to lawsuits or firing, yet are recorded doing everything. Same scenario generically.

As for your wrench analogy - if your job is a terminal - all of that and more is recorded. Every stroke, every move, how long since your last move - for a lot of workers.

I would advocate getting rid of them for everyone, if that was an option.
Because teachers and LEOs have direct interaction with the public. Their job is public. While pilots operate objects that carry passengers, they rarely have direct contact involving legal issues. Also, teachers are dealing with minors.
Then, there is an issue of trust. Pilots need A LOT of education to get to the pilot seat, then have to do continuous education while they are flying. Then someone comes and says: yeah, we do not trust you, although we have CVR and FDR, let's tape you so that once that recording leaks, the hairdresser in Colorado Springs can go on Facebook and comment on it.
 
Because teachers and LEOs have direct interaction with the public. Their job is public. While pilots operate objects that carry passengers, they rarely have direct contact involving legal issues. Also, teachers are dealing with minors.
Then, there is an issue of trust. Pilots need A LOT of education to get to the pilot seat, then have to do continuous education while they are flying. Then someone comes and says: yeah, we do not trust you, although we have CVR and FDR, let's tape you so that once that recording leaks, the hairdresser in Colorado Springs can go on Facebook and comment on it.
I am not disagreeing, but most camera's are not needed and that doesn't seem to rate in the decision making process. Bettylou in accounting doesn't need one, but can have one. 99.9% of stuff recorded is worthless. Reference YouTube for proof. :ROFLMAO:

As already agreed, every move a pilot makes is logged, so I was surprised at the perspective that this is a huge intrusion. So I will equate it back to no one wants to be on film. Me either, although I am most of the time to a degree. No one will ever look unless something bad happens while I am nearby.

Like I said, I am not advocating camera's - just was surprised by the significant push back.

Not familiar with Trains , but they are probably “ single pilot” , and unless the operator talks to themselves ( audio recording ) , investigators may never know the whole “ picture” without cameras.
I can't say they all are or are not - but many at least have their own black box and the telemetry is sent to a server in real time. It however is mainly for O&M - fuel usage, maintenance, etc. Although presumably would be available in an accident. I happen to know someone that works in this field. I believe its common for some railways but don't know which. Possible one or the other?
 
I am not disagreeing, but most camera's are not needed and that doesn't seem to rate in the decision making process. Bettylou in accounting doesn't need one, but can have one. 99.9% of stuff recorded is worthless. Reference YouTube for proof. :ROFLMAO:

As already agreed, every move a pilot makes is logged, so I was surprised at the perspective that this is a huge intrusion. So I will equate it back to no one wants to be on film. Me either, although I am most of the time to a degree. No one will ever look unless something bad happens while I am nearby.

Like I said, I am not advocating camera's - just was surprised by the significant push back.


I can't say they all are or are not - but many at least have their own black box and the telemetry is sent to a server in real time. It however is mainly for O&M - fuel usage, maintenance, etc. Although presumably would be available in an accident. I happen to know someone that works in this field. I believe its common for some railways but don't know which. Possible one or the other?
No one likes to be recorded. But, pilots can make a pushback as it is a finite skill that few people can do. They have a voice.
 
I am not disagreeing technically. My question was not a technical one. What especially should shield pilots from being recorded, when virtually everyone else is? Teachers and LEO are open to lawsuits or firing, yet are recorded doing everything. Same scenario generically.

As for your wrench analogy - if your job is a terminal - all of that and more is recorded. Every stroke, every move, how long since your last move - for a lot of workers.

I would advocate getting rid of them for everyone, if that was an option.
Very different scenario, actually.

Teachers, cops, and others, don’t have every detail of their actions, every thing they touch, every one of hundreds of parameters for which they’re responsible, digitally monitored and recorded already.

Pilots are already monitored far more closely than you’re admitting.

Adding cameras actually confuses the interpretation of their actions - it degrades safety.

Adding a camera to an unmonitored situation improves it.

So, very different.
 
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