overpriced exotic metal spark plugs that underperform!!

[wlk]

You gave plenty of clues. "The copper plugs were more efficient at transferring the electricity to the plug, gaining the extra power."

Please, this place gets too nit-picky over nothing.

 

[OVERKILL]

The point was the copper plug created a few extra hp.

You can fart near the dyno and get a few extra HP, there are error bars on this stuff for a reason.

The copper plugs were more efficient at transferring the electricity to the plug, gaining the extra power.

The nickel tip doesn't transfer electricity to the plug as it's part of the plug, it provides a (wear) surface for the arc (spark) to originate from or land on (assuming a waste spark setup).

Whether the tip is nickel and not actual copper doesn't matter

Of course it matters, they are vastly different materials, so when somebody tosses out "copper" when the surface is not in fact copper, well, that's a rather significant error.

it performed better as the test was a dino not the longer last tips. No aha moments here just the fact that the copper was better at conducting the energy, period. Or if you prefer to call it a nickel plug go ahead.

And again you flagrantly abuse the terminology while claiming you are being misunderstood in this thread. You are implying that the nickel (while stating copper) was the better conductor compared to more exotic materials, and thus producing more power on a limited series of dyno runs.

So, if that's the theory, that the conductivity of nickel is the driver here, how does that square with iridium being a better conductor than nickel?

 

[Astro14]

The point was the copper plug created a few extra hp. The copper plugs were more efficient at transferring the electricity to the plug, gaining the extra power. Whether the tip is nickel and not actual copper doesn't matter it performed better as the test was a dino not the longer last tips. No aha moments here just the fact that the copper was better at conducting the energy, period. Or if you prefer to call it a nickel plug go ahead.

So, you're saying that copper is "better at conducting energy" - but they all have copper cores, not just the "copper" plugs.

So, a platinum has a copper core, so does an iridium, so, how then, is the copper in a copper plug conducting more energy than the copper in anything else?

A few extra HP in what kind of engine? Against what was it being compared? By "dino" do you mean gasoline? I mean, all of the engines we are talking about are gasoline.

Look - New plugs always do better than worn - because the radius of the electrode matters - the sharper the edge - the better the spark.

So, a new "copper" has sharp edges on that electrode, and it will make a good spark, but once it wears, it rounds over, and makes a poor spark. The fine electrodes, like platinum, or iridium, by virtue of their shape, keep a sharp edge. They keep the performance for the long run.

 

[wlk]

And again you flagrantly abuse the terminology while claiming you are being misunderstood in this thread. You are implying that the nickel (while stating copper) was the better conductor compared to more exotic materials, and thus producing more power on a limited series of dyno runs.

Nah, copper is the term for that plug; I didn't name it; go bark up someone else tree about that.
And it's a nickel alloy, not a straight nickel tip on the copper core. Don't forget as you're playing for semantics here.

So, if that's the theory, that the conductivity of nickel is the driver here, how does that square with iridium being a better conductor than nickel?

It was just more efficient/conducted better for that test by the resulting extra, however minuscule, hp/trq whatever it was. Sorry deleted your fart comment by accident, although I do believe you are trying to discredit someone else's data.

And as far as iridium being able to handle higher temps, double ~ and last longer, that's about it.
However, I do believe the copper, wait... nickel plugs move heat away a little better than iridium. Could also be the reason the copper plug got the gain the others didn't.

 

[wlk]

So, you're saying that copper is "better at conducting energy" - but they all have copper cores, not just the "copper" plugs.

So, a platinum has a copper core, so does an iridium, so, how then, is the copper in a copper plug conducting more energy than the copper in anything else?

Idk, never said it did. I said the copper conducted better- meaning better for that test, see post 27 and 28. You all get so hung up here and not for the sake of being accurate but for right. You, overkill and kschanch are the ones mixing words, i said copper, meaning plug then everyone comes out to preach. Everyone else accepts the terms and moves on with the conversation except you guys. See post 31 and 58 onwards.

A few extra HP in what kind of engine? Against what was it being compared? By "dino" do you mean gasoline? I mean, all of the engines we are talking about are gasoline.

Please, autocorrect went to dino instead on dyno.
See post 27.

Look - New plugs always do better than worn - because the radius of the electrode matters - the sharper the edge - the better the spark.

So, a new "copper" has sharp edges on that electrode, and it will make a good spark, but once it wears, it rounds over, and makes a poor spark. The fine electrodes, like platinum, or iridium, by virtue of their shape, keep a sharp edge. They keep the performance for the long run.

Nobody is arguing that or denying it.

Most people bashed the poor original thread poster as he afforded a cheaper set of plugs, who cares? Be happy there are new plugs even if not correct and won't last as long as iridiums. Again who cares, is it yours- no. Give him a like and move on if you don't agree. He scored some plugs and was excited about it.

 

[Mainia]

searching for "regular" spark plugs for girlfriends 2018 kia optima FINALLY showed cheaper options!! less than $20 delivered for copper-nickel ones because no one stocks the lower profit basic plugs!! on an EZE DIY install its a no-brainer IMO!!!

That is a really stupid move, Hyundai/KIA are already “ on a cliff to commit suicide” and you are helping it along. Those POS plugs are good for only 30,000 miles and start to degrade the first time you turn over the engine. Every car manufacturer uses far better plugs for a reason. It is no longer 1980. No one stocks them because “daily wind up alarm clocks have been replaced with far superior products”.

 

[4WD]

That is a really stupid move, Hyundai/KIA are already “ on a cliff to commit suicide” and you are helping it along. Those POS plugs are good for only 30,000 miles and start to degrade the first time you turn over the engine. Every car manufacturer uses far better plugs for a reason. It is no longer 1980. No one stocks them because “daily wind up alarm clocks have been replaced with far superior products”.

I changed plugs at 80k on my L83 - OEM plugs that I think were rebadged NGK. Pricey? Maybe, but doubt I’ll ever do that again since the 8 plugs I tossed were mint …

 

[CarlB]

Idk, never said it did. I said the copper conducted better- meaning better for that test, see post 27 and 28. You all get so hung up here and not for the sake of being accurate but for right. You, overkill and kschanch are the ones mixing words, i said copper, meaning plug then everyone comes out to preach. Everyone else accepts the terms and moves on with the conversation except you guys. See post 31 and 58 onwards.

Please, autocorrect went to dino instead on dyno.
See post 27.

Nobody is arguing that or denying it.

Most people bashed the poor original thread poster as he afforded a cheaper set of plugs, who cares? Be happy there are new plugs even if not correct and won't last as long as iridiums. Again who cares, is it yours- no. Give him a like and move on if you don't agree. He scored some plugs and was excited about it.

If power gains were measured from a plug change, which they absolutely can be, it isn't because the copper core is more electrically conductive. Outside of the language choices, that is what most people seem to be disputing. There are so many reasons a plug swap will yield a power increase, but the core construction isn't high on the list.

 

[kschachn]

Plus the fact that the metallic conductor material in the core does not meaningfully contribute to the overall resistance.

The whole "copper" argument is nonsensical and gets amplified by people on the Internet ad infinitum.

 

[Jetronic]

You are discharging the coil through the plug and it's the voltage (why ignition coils are high voltage) to bridge the gap that's the requirement for the spark. A larger gap will require higher voltage. Also, it's not 20-30 amps through the plug, it's like 50mA, 20-30A would be instantly lethal if you were to accidentally touch a plug lead. Many modern ignitions fire the plug multiple times at low engine speeds (like how the old MSD boxes worked) to improve ignition and reduce emissions.

When a plug fires; when the spark jumps the gap, there's a "kernel", it's basically the area directly around the spark, that aides in igniting the mixture. Common hotrodding "trick" was to cut back the strap to expose more of the centre electrode to make the kernel bigger. This was the same though process behind the Splitfire plugs, the Bosch +4 plugs...etc. Expose the kernel, improve the ignition of the mixture. People also indexed their plugs so that the open side was pointing toward the intake valve and into the chamber with the strap toward the wall (on wedge chambers).

Also, if you are racing, you are changing the plugs regularly. Spending extra money on plugs designed to last 100,000 miles would be a complete waste.

20 Amps x 20 kV = 0.4 Megawatt.
0.05 amps x 20kV = 1 kW

if 0.4 Megawatt was needed to ignite a cylinder, we'd be far better off just running electric

 

[IndyIan]

You are discharging the coil through the plug and it's the voltage (why ignition coils are high voltage) to bridge the gap that's the requirement for the spark. A larger gap will require higher voltage. Also, it's not 20-30 amps through the plug, it's like 50mA, 20-30A would be instantly lethal if you were to accidentally touch a plug lead. Many modern ignitions fire the plug multiple times at low engine speeds (like how the old MSD boxes worked) to improve ignition and reduce emissions.

When a plug fires; when the spark jumps the gap, there's a "kernel", it's basically the area directly around the spark, that aides in igniting the mixture. Common hotrodding "trick" was to cut back the strap to expose more of the centre electrode to make the kernel bigger. This was the same though process behind the Splitfire plugs, the Bosch +4 plugs...etc. Expose the kernel, improve the ignition of the mixture. People also indexed their plugs so that the open side was pointing toward the intake valve and into the chamber with the strap toward the wall (on wedge chambers).

Also, if you are racing, you are changing the plugs regularly. Spending extra money on plugs designed to last 100,000 miles would be a complete waste.

Yeah, I kind of forgot that, and missed the x10^-5 note on the graph I was looking at, but I was thinking what happens in the centre electrode?
So 25000V is needed to jump the gap, but to get there, the charge went through the plug which is say 5000 ohms resistance, so isn't it 5 amps of current in the centre electrode?
I dunno? I think I need to do some more reading!

 

[DuckRyder]

Remember back in the day (way back) how weird a Bosch Platinum looked on an occiliscope.

Same car - vastly different pattern on SUN between standard Bosch and Bosch Platin as they were called.

 

[johnmyster]

Rheutheeeeeeeniiiiium?

 

[hrv]

JC Whiteny fire injectors....

 

[wlk]

If power gains were measured from a plug change, which they absolutely can be, it isn't because the copper core is more electrically conductive.

Tell overkill this, he thinks it's from farting beside the dyno machine.

Outside of the language choices, that is what most people seem to be disputing. There are so many reasons a plug swap will yield a power increase, but the core construction isn't high on the list.

Noone stated it was from the copper core, that's the point. Everyone else's went on and on over the stupid copper core but wouldn't accept that.

 

[wlk]

Plus the fact that the metallic conductor material in the core does not meaningfully contribute to the overall resistance.

The whole "copper" argument is nonsensical and gets amplified by people on the Internet ad infinitum.

Blame yourself for that argument

 

[Skippy722]

Idk, never said it did. I said the copper conducted better- meaning better for that test, see post 27 and 28.

Iridium has a higher thermal conductivity and lower resistance than nickel. Platinum is slightly worse than nickel other than longevity, and ruthenium has ever so slightly higher (like 2 nano ohms) resistance but better thermal conductivity than nickel.

Tl;dr “copper” plugs are cheap, that’s the only reason to use them in a daily driver. Ruthenium, Iridium, and Platinum will last longer while giving a more consistent spark.

 

[CarlB]

Noone stated it was from the copper core, that's the point. Everyone else's went on and on over the stupid copper core but wouldn't accept that.

It isn't from this either: "The copper plugs were more efficient at transferring the electricity to the plug, gaining the extra power."

 

[kschachn]

Blame yourself for that argument

Sure, whatever you say.

 

[Jetronic]

Plus the fact that the metallic conductor material in the core does not meaningfully contribute to the overall resistance.

The whole "copper" argument is nonsensical and gets amplified by people on the Internet ad infinitum.

yes the resistance of the gap is measured in mega ohms.