Only one fluid on the market!

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
Whoo! Hoo! VersaTrak quietened things down immediately! I didn't even get through my first circle before the groan had gone. I tried the opposite direction and, same thing. RP Synchromax seems to have made a fine flush. But, Synchromax does not replace VersaTrak in the RDM of a 2005 Montana SV6! I don't think that I should start a separate thread, but there may be value in a subject heading that says, "Synchromax is NOT an alternative to VersaTrak."


#1 - glad to hear you have possibly taken care of this issue.

However, give it a little time to make sure it doesn't come back 1st( not trying to jinx you ). Sounds like you are having a real hard time with this vehicle and I would not jump the gun thinking it was fixed just yet. I believe you have said in the past even Versatrak only fixes the noise for a short time? Just sounds to me like something in there is not right( clutches, bearings,... )? Could just be fluid but it certainly should last longer than 25K before failing. Most GM AWD systems almost never call for the fluid to be changed, or at the least it is like 50-100K intervals, so if yours is killing the fluid so fast it makes me think something is wrong.

#2 - "IF" the groan stays away however give RP a call( ask for David Canitz - head of Tech Support ) and tell them it didn't work to replace Versatrak in your Montana's AWD system. I don't know enough about GM AWD systems to know which is which. I know RP Synchromax has been used successfully however in Saturn Vue AWD systems and The Chevy Equinox/Pontiac Torrent AWD systems. Both in the t-case and in the rear differential( or whatever they want to call it ). Not sure what, if anything, is different about your AWD system? But if Synchromax does not work in it they need to know.

RP is really good about NOT recommending their product where it does not work. Let them know for your application it does not appear to work. That will help them when making recommendations in the future. They "might" even reimburse you for the Synchromax seeing as you said they did recommend it to you?

 

[GMorg]

I spent a while today trying to find first hand examples of RP Synchromax working well in the GM RDM. I found many suggestions that it works, but only one guy (at AztecFansClub) that said that he used it in the RDM and came back to the discussion to give an update. He said that it took over 1,000 miles for his groan to go away and he said that he added 6 oz of Lucas oil stabilizer too. I am curious if his groan when away because he finally wore his RDM clutches away. I would be interested in any links to first hand examples of using RP Synchromax in the GM RDM. The thread that found is linked below. It is worth warning that the thread is a 6 page read...

http://www.aztekfanclub.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=naibfqven0hv9a96ja9lp9uap4&topic=2490.0

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
I spent a while today trying to find first hand examples of RP Synchromax working well in the GM RDM. I found many suggestions that it works, but only one guy (at AztecFansClub) that said that he used it in the RDM and came back to the discussion to give an update. He said that it took over 1,000 miles for his groan to go away and he said that he added 6 oz of Lucas oil stabilizer too. I am curious if his groan when away because he finally wore his RDM clutches away. I would be interested in any links to first hand examples of using RP Synchromax in the GM RDM. The thread that found is linked below. It is worth warning that the thread is a 6 page read...

http://www.aztekfanclub.com/SMF/index.php?PHPSESSID=naibfqven0hv9a96ja9lp9uap4&topic=2490.0


Go visit any Saturn forum and specifically the Vue sections and you will find posts from people who have run RP in place of Versatrak for 60K+. Not a lot of forums for the Equinox/Torrent.

If you are not finding the posts using a search then make a post and ask specifically who has used it in their AWD. I have done it a few times and there are plenty of posts and from people who have run Synchromax instead of Versatrak for 60K+.

However, understand your AWD system is different than that in the Vue's, Equinox, Torrent, etc... as well as the bigger vehicles like the Acadai and Outlook. Your AWD system( I decided to go look )was used in the Montana, Aztek, and Venture. Different system so different parts. That can be a big reason.

Also, just FYI, GM went away from using Versatrak in some later year models in the rear. My 08 AWD Equinox only used it in the t-case. For the rear they used 75W-90 synthetic gear oil.

 

[GMorg]

As an update, the VersaTrak fluid continues to be great - no noise at all.

I have also contacted David Canitz at RP. He explained that VersaTrak fluid (GM 12378514) is the same part number that is used for the Corvette manual transmission fluid and that RP Synchromax is recommended as a replacement in that application. I did not fully understand if he was suggesting that VersaTrak fluid is the same as the manual transmission fluid or that the part number is used for more than one fluid. He also said that he had heard of others using Synchromax in some other applications, but he added "we are not claiming that the Synchromax is a warranty replacement for all Versatrak."

As for other Saturn users, I am still having difficulty finding someone that has used Synchromax in a RDM and claimed performance equal to VersaTrak. I did find people that use Synchromax and replace it annually. I also found people that use it and remark on "brass colored sparklies" in the fluid at each change. Lastly, it seems to be an acceptable replacement once the clutches have locked-up anyway - though those people complain about rear tire wear. In many of the threads, the transfer case and the RDM are not clearly differentiated. Some of the Saturn success stories may actually be T-case successes instead of RDM successes.

I am still of the opinion that RP Synchromax is NOT a replacement for VersaTrak in these RDMs.

 

[GMorg]

When I look-up the Corvette manual transmission fluid, I get GM part number 12345349. That is not the same part number as VersaTrak. I don't know what the RP technical rep had in mind. I am becoming curious as what sort data RP used to list Synchromax as an alternative to VersaTrak (12378514).

 

[Familyguy]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
As an update, the VersaTrak fluid continues to be great - no noise at all.

I have also contacted David Canitz at RP. He explained that VersaTrak fluid (GM 12378514) is the same part number that is used for the Corvette manual transmission fluid and that RP Synchromax is recommended as a replacement in that application. I did not fully understand if he was suggesting that VersaTrak fluid is the same as the manual transmission fluid or that the part number is used for more than one fluid. He also said that he had heard of others using Synchromax in some other applications, but he added "we are not claiming that the Synchromax is a warranty replacement for all Versatrak."

As for other Saturn users, I am still having difficulty finding someone that has used Synchromax in a RDM and claimed performance equal to VersaTrak. I did find people that use Synchromax and replace it annually. I also found people that use it and remark on "brass colored sparklies" in the fluid at each change. Lastly, it seems to be an acceptable replacement once the clutches have locked-up anyway - though those people complain about rear tire wear. In many of the threads, the transfer case and the RDM are not clearly differentiated. Some of the Saturn success stories may actually be T-case successes instead of RDM successes.

I am still of the opinion that RP Synchromax is NOT a replacement for VersaTrak in these RDMs.


Consider me a satisfied VUE owner who uses RP in the RDM module. I switched at about 30k miles and the vehicle now has about 60k on it. No noise and I just changed it again. The original Versatrak fluid was BLACK with a fair amount of brass sparkles suspended. The RP Synchromax at 60k looked pretty much the same as when I put it in there at 30k.

Best,

 

[GMorg]

Thanks for the input Familyguy.

I have not experienced black VersaTrak nor metal particles at change time. I have experienced loud groaning during slow, deep turns. I have also experienced rapid rear tire wear. I am nearing time to change the fluid again (the groan is sometimes back). I am glad that Synchromax is working for you. If I get to the point where VersaTrak is shedding brass or coking, I may re-try Synchromax. However, while the RDM is still in good shape and Synchromax produces much more sound than VersaTrak, I am going to stay with VersaTrak. I wonder if somehow Synchromax produces less sound after damage has occurred as opposed to before damage has occurred (assuming that brass particles would be considered damage).

 

[NHHEMI]

The more you post the more it sounds to me like your RDM has issues. If even the Versatrak produces groans and it can't even go 15K before needing to be replaced it sounds like mechanical issues and not fluid issues to me. Add in the rapid tire wear and I say soemthing is not right in there.

 

[GMorg]

I will grant that I may have a RDM issue beyond just a design flaw. However, I haven't had the tire wear issue since the first time that this issue appeared. Since then, I do the TSB procedure whenever the groan returns. Except for the Synchromesh trial that I have described here, the VersaTrak fluid has alleviated the groan each time (which is only twice).

I agree that the fluid should last longer. I have been quite fed-up with this RDM.

 

[dparm]

Weird to see this on Amsoil's site:


Standard Differential, Rear Rear Drive Module......SLF [4]
All TEMPS......
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation
Transfer Case,......SLF [5]
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation


[4] GM Part no. 12378514 (U.S.), 88901405 (CAN).
[5] GM part no. 12378514.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
I will grant that I may have a RDM issue beyond just a design flaw. However, I haven't had the tire wear issue since the first time that this issue appeared. Since then, I do the TSB procedure whenever the groan returns. Except for the Synchromesh trial that I have described here, the VersaTrak fluid has alleviated the groan each time (which is only twice).

I agree that the fluid should last longer. I have been quite fed-up with this RDM.


The tire issue may be a sign the problem is getting worse.

 

[13brian]

I own an '04 Aztek AWD. Had the entire rear tranfercase replaced under aftermarket warranty (bought the vehicle used). Glad we had the warranty.
I was chasing down another problem (ended up being transmission- metal filings in pan, I am in the process of removing it now).

Just some notes:
My brother worked at GM until the last batch of layoffs. He worked corporate in Detroit. He knows an engineer personally that worked on the VersaTrak system. The system was built around the fluid- so that is why we cannot find information or replacement I guess. The TC's in Saturns are not the same. Only the ones in the Buick Rendezvous.
Just some info, in case you were wondering. ...and no I cannot/will not ask my brother to relay messages or questions.

 

[GMorg]

I finally decided that it was time to do another RDM change of VersaTrak fluid. It had started to whine again on parking lot maneuvers. This change interval was 18 thousand miles (69 Kmiles on unit). I decided to try MoS2 as an additive this time. If the whine is due to friction between the clutch plates, I thought that Moly may fix the problem even though I would probably lose some of the power transfer to the rear. To my surprise, new fluid and LubriMoly at 1 oz per quart of VersaTrak resulted in a louder whining after the first two tight turns. It wasn't as loud as RP SynchroMax, but it was louder than before the fluid change. I tolerated the sound and drove the vehicle for another three days. It didn't get any louder, but it never did get quieter. I spiked-in another full ounce of MoS2 and drove it another day. The extra MoS2 did not create a perceivable change.

After one more day, I gave up and did another change of VersaTrak fluid and the RDM was silent after the first tight turn. I have driven the van for over a week now and it is still silent. My final conclusion is that VersaTrak is the only fluid that works in this application and that it does not tolerate a dose of MoS2. This was my most expensive lesson yet for this fluid. It is now listing at $32 per half liter and the unit needs two quarts per change.

I still haven't seen any sign of damage. I haven't seen any fine metal in the changed fluid. The rear drive kicks-in in mud and on ice. I also haven't had any tire wear issues since the first time the problem was fixed with a flush. I sure would like to know how this stuff works even if I can't find a replacement.

 

[GMorg]

We go a bit of snow last night. The roads are a mess. The AWD is great! It is too bad that it seems to need VersaTrak fluid.

 

[2184]

The versatrak in my brand new 2006 AWD Rendezvous started making noises the first time it reached above 80 degrees here in Nashville. The dealership changed the fluid every spring, figure 8's, drove it, then came back and changed it again according to TSB. The growling noise never went away completely until winter and always lightly growling sounds in summer. Dealership said no authorization for a new rear differential, just fluid changes to solve problem. Warranty ran out, so now, I have to change it myself every spring. 8 bottles X $26 a bottle!I realize this thread is old, but anybody come up with any versatrak substitutes yet? I can't afford $208 + tax each time, plus I have to do it myself. BTW if you don't change the versatrak fluid often, it clogs up the rear diff fluid sensor and it's $400 just for the part and you have to buy more versatrak fluid! It just happened to me! OUCH!

 

[mlc9]

Have recently been an unfortunate victim of the Versatrak problem. Have a 2003 Pontiac Montana that suffers from the dreaded moaning/groaning when cranking the wheel left and right. I've often described it as sounding like Chewbacca from Star Wars. Although it's done this for 20k-30k miles, I have only now gotten serious about it because the "AWD Disable" light has come on. Most mechanics have had no clue as to what the sound was.

Like most people on internet forums, I wanted to cry when I was told the price of the Versatrak differential fluid by mechanic today. It was $32/pint from local Chevrolet dealer, and I needed 9 pints. A few hours of research landed me on this forum and others, and I've seen a lot about Royal Purple Synchromax fluid being a replacement for Versatrak fluid. Most people have had decent results, with at least one saying the noise actually got worse.

I actually ended up calling Royal Purple HQ today and spoke to technical person about it. As expected, he confidently said the Synchromax fluid is very much a replacement fluid for the Versatrak system. Although he would not commit to saying it would address all of my problems, he went to great lengths to assure me it would not harm my vehicle.

My mechanic was able to find the RP Synchromax in stock in Nashville area where I live as well, so all fluid is getting drained and replaced today. Here's hoping it doesn't mess things up worse. Will keep posted, and would be interested if 2184 has found a solution.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^

That 'Chewie' sound going around low speed turns/parking lots is the same one my Eaton Posi makes when there is not enough limited slip friction modifier in the pumpkin!

 

[03montanaAWD]

I have had the same issue with my 2003 montana rdm. I have not found any substitute for versatrak fluid. The original rdm went around 25k then the replacement only lasted 1year aprox 1,000 miles. replaced again under warranty. Had dealer do the drain fill, drain again about 2years latter. (about 2,000 miles). now I had to do it again about 3,000 miles.(2years). We don't use it very much even now the 03 has only 39k on it. Love the van, Hate the RDM. Have you found any long term solution. or has the problem been at least controlled by the fluid change whenever the noise appears? I just did the drain, fill drain yesterday my self, and did see some metal in the bottom of the catch pan. THE NOISE IS GONE FOR NOW, I hope it last.

 

[GMorg]

I have seen others claim success with SynchroMax and Saturn units. However, I have not yet seen any claims of replacing VersaTrak in these units. They are different.

I am doing 15K mile Versatrak changes on the rear drive module(RDM) which is about 18 month intervals for me. I haven't found anything that can replace VersaTrak and remove the moaning sound. I have found that early moaning can be kept at base by doing the TSB donut driving without changing the fluid. You may want to consider that strategy if you are only getting 3K out of each change.

I am experimenting with a variety of things in the transfer case (T-case) which also spec VersaTrak. It seems as though any 75W90 fluid is fine in the T-case but I don't have any UOA to back that up. My conclusions are based on lack of sounds, lack of heat build-up, and crystal clear drains. My current fill in the T-case is Royal Purple Max Gear. It is a little thicker than average, but the purple dye makes it difficult to evaluate the "crystal clear" part of my assessment.

I highly recommend that if you see unexpected tire wear (especially on the back tires) that you also change out the T-case fluid once you get the RDM back into shape. When the RDM is moaning, it is also putting a lot of stress on a T-case that is a little under designed for my preferences.

As for the comment above about posi-traction and additives, I have thought about playing with some of the additives, but I am concerned that I may have to use too much in relation to corrosion. I haven't had to pull mine apart, so I don't know what sort of materials are used in the unit. Given some of the observations of others, there appears to be some yellow metals, I presume the gears are iron based, the casing is aluminum, and I don't know the composition of the clutches. With the mix of materials and a poor case history, I have decided to just use the VersaTrak for now. I watch for good prices and get 2-3 changes at a time. The last purchase was about 5 months ago and cost $22/pint.

 

[03montanaAWD]

Thanks for the update. Ill let you know how it works for me. If I ever do find a alternative fluid Ill let you know. Havent had a problem with the t-case as far as I know, And never seen any tire wear issue. Do you do the drain fill drain each time now, or can you get away with just one drain and fill. I did the 1st drain and fill then the circles. The noise went away almost immediately. I then drove a shorts bit down the highway and tried circles again and the noise returned only going to the left?. I then did the 2nd drain fill and circles. The noise did not come back on that test drive, Ill have to wait and see . Good luck.