One to ruffle some feathers

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Chris71
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!


Chris, I have a question for you, and I am not trying to be rude.

How many engines have you had apart in your life? How much experimenting (with tear downs) have you done on your OWN equipment?

I have SOME (albeit not as much as others) experience in this department with the engines in the cars in my signature.

I have the documented maintenance history for my Town Car from when it was NEW. I had the top-end off of it last year for a heads/cam/intake swap. The oil pan was off it in 1998 to be replaced. It current has 332,000Km on the stock shortblock. The bottom-end of that engine has never been touched.

It had Mobil 1 5w30 in it for 2 years starting in 1996 to 1998. When I moved to Ontario, my dad was having the garage change his oil and they began putting conventional in it and this continued until 2004.

When I acquired the car from him ('04), the PCV filter screen was plugged solid, causing excessive build-up of gases in the crankcase. I am sure this did not contribute positively to the condition of the inside of the engine.

This was evident when I pulled the intake and found what looked to be carbon/wax between the seem of the head/block in the lifter valley. There was no sludge, but there was some varnish in the valley.

There was no discernible wear on the cylinder walls (it has had a K&N panel filter since 1994), and the crosshatching was still visible (common with 302's).

In contrast, when I had my Mustang engine apart to do heads/cam/intake on it, I had put on over 90,000Km on various grades of Mobil 1 in it. I bought it with just over 200K on it, and pulled it apart at around the 300 mark. It was spotless.

It had never been apart either.

There was ZERO varnish, zero sludge, everything was CLEAN. It was much nicer inside than my Town Car engine, and with basically the same mileage.

These are not 3rd party examples. These are my own examples with my own equipment, that, by my own admission, I do drive extremely hard. The Mustang was drag-raced several times every season when it was together (it's in a new body right now that isn't done) and was on the rev-limiter many, MANY times.

5,000RPM clutch dumps on slicks, pulled to the red on an engine with 300K on it..... That's a fair deal of abuse. But very common use for one of these cars.

The Mustang community is a close-knit one. I have seen, and helped tear down engines of my friend's cars for various reasons, and the one thing that stands out is that the engines that were run on synthetic oil are cleaner and show less signs of wear. This isn't peering through the rocker cover, this is the engine coming apart for one reason or another and things being properly looked at.

It is different when you know the entire (or most of the) history of an engine and what oil has been in it, when it was changed...etc vs an engine that has come in and you are hearing from a customer as to how the engine was maintained and with what.....

A person who builds engines often has established a comfortable relationship with one brand and grade (or grades) of oil. They have had good luck with it, and so they will recommend it. And while this advice is based on experience, it is still far from perfect due to the operating conditions and maintenance of these engines being outside the realm of control.

And just to note: A person who listens to the builder as to what grade and what oil they should run in the engine is far more likely to adhere to that and the schedule than somebody who refuses to listen and wants to run THEIR choice and do it on their terms. It is often these people who will "exaggerate" how the engine was maintained when it fails and act shocked at what they see and then tell the builder that they were running a "good synthetic"........

I've posted up tear down pics on here as well, of two 302's; one poorly maintained on Dyno oil, one well maintained on Amsoil. The pictures speak for themselves. Feel free to look for them if you are interested.

 

[gtoracer]

Originally Posted By: GrampsintheSand
I know some great butchers. Man they cut the perfect steak everytime and can bone a chicken in a heartbeat.....but they don't know diddly about raising cattle or chickens.......point is....just because a guy/gal can build a motor doesn't mean they know diddly about oil.


I agree!

 

[BullyT]

Kudos, OVERK1LL. Excellent post. Well said and documented.

 

[gtoracer]

Originally Posted By: Chris71
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!


You knew you were going to ruffle some feathers, didn't know they would be yours did you?

 

[Merkava_4]

The (valve stem) to (valve guide) interface has a greater clearance than the engine bearings do; I'm thinking it was more of a problem with having too thin of an oil than the issue of it being a synthetic. If the engine was run on Mobil 1 5W-30/10W-30 ... I can definitely see the valve guides getting worn out and fast.

 

[Chris71]

Maybe the problem is less prevalent in newer production engines. How many of us "experts" have ever torn down and rebuilt a race engine? That's what I thought.

 

[Chris71]

My feathers aren't ruffled in the least. Just because I swear doesn't mean I'm Pi**ed off. I'm just getting tired of the attitude that Amsoil and Mobil 1 are so good that they can cure cancer and no data to the contrary can possibly exist.

 

[jorton]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Congrats on meeting some real pros in person Chris. Sprint cars and short circle track racing and builders were the type of technicians I grew up around(in shops, garages under shad etreees and pit row) I would take those pros experience much more seriously than that of websperts.

RIP San Antonio Speedway. Hard to argue with Long's VR 20w-50. Helping out on one Super Street Stock on Saturdays was a RUSH. Favorites were #40 and #44 maaaaaaaan could THEY DRIVE!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Never mind that many of us have had engines go 300,000 with no oil consuption issues on synthetic. If the guides where wearing out consuption would be an issue. I routinely went 80,000 miles on race I4 and I never had any issue with guides in fact I normal was able to reuse my valve guides. I had a 22RE I built that would turn 10,000 RPM but I usualy only took it 9,500. I used it for off road raceing but the vechile was street legal so I would drive it in the summer time all over the place useualy to the sand dunes or mud bogs etc.... When I took him the block at 80,000 he thought I was pulling his leg and trying to see if he was honest. He called me up all upset. He thought it was one of those set ups like investigative reports and could not belive that the engine had 80,000 miles since every thing was with-in spec. I was selling the engine to a client that insisted I sell him my engine so I sent the block out to make sure it was with-in spec since this customer was p[aying me top dollar. I did not want any come back's. That engine had been feed a strict diet of M1 15W50 Red Cap. So had him lightly hone the bores installed new bearing and new rings and gaskets and sent it down the road. The guy took that engine and put it in a Celica and it was a fast celica. I had to put his oil pan on it and I tranfered all his electronics and intake etc......The only reason I had him lightly hone the bores was because I was installing fresh rings. Tecnicaly the cross hatching looked like new and their was no ridge. The only thing I did to the block before sending out was remove all the plugs and scrub it down with tide an oil galley brush and a hot power washer. The head I cleaned in the solvent tank. The machinest swore that I sent him a new short block. SO my point is that wear can be net to nothing with a potent synthethetic with a high HTHS and lots of additives on an engine that was being pushed to it's limits on a regular basis imagine what a run of the mill synthetic with just a decent additive package and just a decent HTHS can do in a daily driver!!

Another example would be Dad's 170,000 mile Tacoma. His engine is close to spotless I know because I had it apart to change a tensioner burried inthe the engine! Only one valve had to have a shim and it took the thinestshim Toyota makes. I even reused the head gasket and even it is holding. All of the internals looked like brand new. His tacoma still does not burn a drop of oil between oil changes at least not enough to tell by looking at the dipstick. I can still get his 4X4 up to 55-60 mph in second gear and have some tach left! that has been run about 70% of the time on M1 15W50 Red Cap until it was not available in the ummer then 10W30 M1 inthe winter. The other 30% where Pennzoil Synthetic,Q-State Synthetic,Amsoil Synthetic and a few runs of M1 0W40 recently dureing the winter. It has never seen dino oil except for the factory fill and I am sure Dad tossed that at 500-1000 miles. SO again if guide wear was a problem you think his Toyota would have experinced it. I sold a Toyota to a friend that still has it on the road . He takes it p to the sand dunes. It is 26 year's old my Dad bought it new and My family owned it for 17 years then I sold it to him and it is now 26 years old and still get driven daily to work and the sand dunes onthe weekends. Synthetic until my friend bought it. He is a dino man.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Ricky Rudd and Terry Labonte would often drop into Corpus Christi Speedway and run in the late model class on Saturday nights in the early to mid 80's. What a fun time! Even more fun when all of us grandkids began turning 16. As for oil I remember my Grandpa buying Castrol by the case. I can't recall the viscosity for sure. it was either straight 30 or 20w50. At that time my grandfather who had once raced a flathead Ford would always comment on how much better oil was then than when he raced.

 

[Chris71]

I never said synthetics didn't lubricate engines well. I merely said they seemed to be finding wear problems on mostly race and some street engines in the valve guide area when the engines lived on synthetic. I neither support nor deny this info. I'm merely passing it on. I've torn down and re-built a few 440s in my day.

 

[FZ1]

I think that the most important aspect of wear for us "users" is to change the oil before it is significantly contaminated. Lot's of people have run a lot of miles on straight weight conventionals. They just changed the oil often.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Chris71
I never said synthetics didn't lubricate engines well. I merely said they seemed to be finding wear problems on mostly race and some street engines in the valve guide area when the engines lived on synthetic. I neither support nor deny this info. I'm merely passing it on. I've torn down and re-built a few 440s in my day.


Perhaps this is isolated to the engines in question? Are they all of the same type? Chevy small blocks for example?

The seals are supposed to prevent the guides from getting oil..... So I'm sort of confused here. Unless we are talking about engines intentionally running WITHOUT seals, and then we are into something completely different.

In the days of old (like the 440 out of our '72 Century Coronado) the lead in the fuel is what kept the guides lubricated. Our 440 lost a valve due to this (new fuel, not enough lead substitute) and now sits in pieces. Plans are to replace it with an EFI 302.

Different engines have different seals and guides, as well as different guide material types (and valve material for that matter), and different methods (or the lack thereof) of lubrication, so unless this data encapsulates a pile of different engines from a variety of different manufacturers, it could be simply due to engine design, a fluke, fuel type/quality...etc.

As I said to you before, it's very much PREFERENCE more than it is FACT. My cam grinder, who is a very well known racer runs very thin synthetic oil in his race engines and has commented as to how good things spec out on tear-down. But he doesn't go telling people conventional oil is [censored], rather that the quality of the synthetic (M1) is good enough that he can run a much thinner oil (0w20) and thus make more power.

The difference is here is that these are HIS engines, that HE runs and builds..... He's involved from when it's built, to when it's disassembled. I think this perhaps is a bit more valid in terms of data integrity.... But again, is just another data point to be plotted.

And as far as RACE engines mentioned in your earlier post, I race my junk. All 330,000Km of it. So do all my friends in the Mustang community. 9, 10 and 11 second cars, all street driven. I'm one of the slower of the bunch, since I don't have a power-adder.

Synthetic oils seem to work better in 302's. That's MY data point. And I can back it up.

How it fairs in a Toyota or a Mopar? I don't know. I don't own any, so I won't comment on that.

My data and the data I've received from equally reputable sources contradicts yours. That's to be expected I think.

Without conflicting data, we'd have a [censored] of a lot less to discuss on here

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
The seals are supposed to prevent the guides from getting oil..... So I'm sort of confused here. Unless we are talking about engines intentionally running WITHOUT seals, and then we are into something completely different.


The seals are supposed to meter the amount oil going to the valve stems; it's very little, but there is supposed to be some oil that gets by. Most racers will opt to leave the valve stem seals off for better lubrication.

We're trying to make assumptions on the very little information we have on this engine such as: What kind of engine in the first place? What kind synthetic oil and more importantly, what was the viscosity? What was the material used for the guides?

It would be nice if we had a little more information.

 

[NHHEMI]

For whatever this is worth. Some personal experience and observation and some general knowledge comments...

My meger qualifications:

Worked in the auto field( aftermarket and dealer parts and service )and dealt with engine machining a lot.

Hot Rodder/Drag racer( not pro )who rebuilt many engines from GM and MOPAR personally and with ^^^ you can add experience with rebuilds on Ford and many foreign to the list.

HUGE MOPAR 383 fan - the 383 was famous for valve & valve guide issues.

1 - As some others have said the valve seals are designed to block oil from getting past. There is a very, very, thin film that does get through as another poster mentioned but it is not much. The seal can not keep 100% of the oil out. A thin film will cling to the surface. Niether the valve stems, nor the valve guides, are designed to be lubricated by the oil in the crankcase however. On older engines anyway but perhaps that has changed since I got out of the auto field? I don't see how it could have however because it would cause the spark plugs to foul all the time if the intake valves were not sealed at the least.

As another poster mentions it used to be the lead in the fuel that lubricated the valves and guides. If you have an older car that originally used leaded fuel you need to either use a lead additive when you fuel up or you need to have the heads machined and modern hardened valve guides installed. If not, as that poster mentioned, your guides will wear and the valves will as well. The stem does get oil on it while up/closed but as the rocker pushes down on it to open it the seal in effect "scrapes the oil off".

The MOPAR 383 was infamous for valves wearing out. The guides and the valves would wear( poor design I guess - they all did it )which eventually let the seals loosen and then you had the fouled plugs. Extremely common issue. I had a lot of 383's and the 1st step was always new, modern, hardened guides( NEVER run unleaded btw in a 383 unless it has modern guides or you will be doing a valve job in a few thousand miles ). I also ran synthetic oil in many of those rebuilds and it never caused increased wear. I have actually seen 383's run( drags )on conventional and synthetic and then seen them torn down. Wear to the valves was the same that I can recall anyway - nothing stands out. That is because the oil has no real part in it.

So, how would the oil even come into this discussion with the guy? What would it have to do with the lubrication of the valve stems and valve guides? Go back and ask him to explain it more because it makes no sense to me. On a daily driver I don't see how it comes into play at all and unless we are talking real high level pro race engines I don't either. Perhaps as others have asked this has to do with soemthing special on the guys race engines? Is he using some kind of metal valve seal or super hard guide that causes wear when the valve travels up and down inside of it?

That brings me to

2 - let's assume just for the sake of his argument that the valve stems and guide are lubricated by the oil. It is a well know fact that synthetic oil is "more slippery". It creates less friction and thus less heat vs conventional oil. Friction and the heat it generates is what causes wear on the internal metal parts. So, if by it's very nature synthetic oil reduces wear on engine parts HOW can using it INCREASE wear on a part? Especially since the valves and valve guides are not really lubricated by the oil to begin with.

That is what has me questioning this guys statements. Not an attack on you or anything. I get you are just posting what you were told. Just doesn't fly to me based on my experience and knowledge.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Originally Posted By: NHSilverado
For whatever this is worth. Some personal experience and observation and some general knowledge comments...
That brings me to

2 - let's assume just for the sake of his argument that the valve stems and guide are lubricated by the oil. It is a well know fact that synthetic oil is "more slippery".


Izzat so? There are some folks around here don't think so..

 

[lovcom]

I find it interesting that people assume auto mechanics know oil, lubrication and such. They don't usually, and often they know less then most. Often mechanics are what I call "sophomoric", meaning that they think their expertise on fixing cars emcompasses all things automotive, including oil. Often mechanics are "religious" with their zeal for certain myths and such. This happens in other industries too, of course, and whenever and where ever humans are involved.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: NHSilverado


It is a well know fact that synthetic oil is "more slippery".


That is one statement is a doozy. Please tell me more about how "slippery" is measured?

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: Chris71
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!


I don't think anyone was doubting you. You were just the messenger. So why are you getting your panties in a ruffle? Taking this so personal? I think the distilled theme in the majority of posts is that just because someone is a mechanic, or world-class engine builder does NOT make then an expert on oil. Engine builders are only human and will often turn their bias into religion. Most of them know sqaut about oil, and less most often no more then the average Yahoo hanging out here. And in fact, I know at least one plastic surgeon that knows more about oil then the majority of so calle mechanics, and this goes for the world-class engine builders too.

So grow up ;-)

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: Chris71
My feathers aren't ruffled in the least. Just because I swear doesn't mean I'm Pi**ed off. I'm just getting tired of the attitude that Amsoil and Mobil 1 are so good that they can cure cancer and no data to the contrary can possibly exist.


Where is your data?