One to ruffle some feathers

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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I've posted up tear down pics on here as well, of two 302's; one poorly maintained on Dyno oil, one well maintained on Amsoil. The pictures speak for themselves. Feel free to look for them if you are interested.



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Well maintained on Amsoil vs. poorly maintained on dino?

What would you expect?
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That's an apples to blueberries comparison.
 
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Originally Posted By: lovcom
I find it interesting that people assume auto mechanics know oil, lubrication and such. They don't usually, and often they know less then most. Often mechanics are what I call "sophomoric", meaning that they think their expertise on fixing cars emcompasses all things automotive, including oil. Often mechanics are "religious" with their zeal for certain myths and such. This happens in other industries too, of course, and whenever and where ever humans are involved.


I'd personally trust someone who tears down engines and builds race engines more on the subject of engine lubrication than another person who is a know it all about motor oil but has never so much as lifted a valve cover. Me included (although I have lifted a valve cover...).
 
I've also heard this (not the specifics about valve guides/wear, but the "fact" that synthetics are NOT as good as mineral based oils in an engine, in general, with NO further explanation) from our local LSx high performance/race/rebuild (mainly drag/straight line) shop.
They are world renowned, and build some of the quickest/fastest (in the 1/4 mile at least) and most reliable LSx race engines out there, although they are NOT as well known as the 'big names' (i.e.; Katech, Lingenfelter, etc.).
This was several years ago, I don't know if they've changed their tune since then.
I also think that they were changing the dino stuff (usually Cam 2 back then) at 1000 miles or less, so how would they even know???
 
Originally Posted By: gtoracer

You knew you were going to ruffle some feathers, didn't know they would be yours did you?

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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I've also heard this (not the specifics about valve guides/wear, but the "fact" that synthetics are NOT as good as mineral based oils in an engine, in general, with NO further explanation) from our local LSx high performance/race/rebuild (mainly drag/straight line) shop.
They are world renowned, and build some of the quickest/fastest (in the 1/4 mile at least) and most reliable LSx race engines out there, although they are NOT as well known as the 'big names' (i.e.; Katech, Lingenfelter, etc.).
This was several years ago, I don't know if they've changed their tune since then.
I also think that they were changing the dino stuff (usually Cam 2 back then) at 1000 miles or less, so how would they even know???


That's good to hear. Makes me think maybe I'm not going crazy after two teardowns on synthetic.
 
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
Originally Posted By: NHSilverado


It is a well know fact that synthetic oil is "more slippery".


That is one statement is a doozy. Please tell me more about how "slippery" is measured?


Oh give me a break. You know darn well what I mean. The fact I put it in "---" shows it was a humorous comment.
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I've posted up tear down pics on here as well, of two 302's; one poorly maintained on Dyno oil, one well maintained on Amsoil. The pictures speak for themselves. Feel free to look for them if you are interested.



smirk2.gif


Well maintained on Amsoil vs. poorly maintained on dino?

What would you expect?
33.gif


That's an apples to blueberries comparison.


It was just an example of what a poorly maintained 302 that was run on dyno looks like inside and what a well maintained one on Amsoil looks like. I wasn't asking anybody to COMPARE them (please, where did I state it was a comparison?), they were just EXAMPLES.

You over-read into what I wrote.
 
Sure...you through it in there with your little dribble about how that nasty conventional gummed up your motors and the synthetic didn't.

I'll never understand why I'm getting such great performance from $.99/quart conventional oil. PCVs are not gummed up, internals are spotlessly clean. I can look down at the valves and top of the head in my Mom's 1999 Olds 88 with 170,000 miles and it's not even stained. Just shiny metal.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I find it interesting that people assume auto mechanics know oil, lubrication and such. They don't usually, and often they know less then most. Often mechanics are what I call "sophomoric", meaning that they think their expertise on fixing cars emcompasses all things automotive, including oil. Often mechanics are "religious" with their zeal for certain myths and such. This happens in other industries too, of course, and whenever and where ever humans are involved.


I'd personally trust someone who tears down engines and builds race engines more on the subject of engine lubrication than another person who is a know it all about motor oil but has never so much as lifted a valve cover. Me included (although I have lifted a valve cover...).


Not me. I've heard too many builders tell me that (and lately) that Pennzoil has "too much" parafin, and it will sludge up the motor. Another tells me that Valvoline will cause engine failure. Still one other "forbid" me to put 0W-20 in my Toyota Yaris, as it will "guarentee engine failure before 50,000 miles". I really do think that one must be very cynical when dealing with "experts" and even the "experts" that come on TV, write books, and build many race engines. Never assume that pros are impervious to religion, bias, and mythology.

And knowing oil has little and perhaps NOTHING to do with building engines.

I work in IT, and too often, programmers "just know" how the hardware works, pure unadulterated Bool Sheet.
 
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my dad was always against synthetics because of what his mechanic friend told him. the friend worked in dealerships and independents for many years, was a chevy racer from back in the day, real old school, old enough to automatically get respect. he used to say that if you have any warranty issues, they won't honor it because of the synthetic. we've all heard this before and it still gets repeated, even by so-called 'experts'.
my dad always believed what his friend said, but after watching him replace fuel injection setups w/ carbs, and weld the spider gears in his street driven 10 sec '63 nova, well, I take anything he says w/ a very small grain of salt.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Sure...you through it in there with your little dribble about how that nasty conventional gummed up your motors and the synthetic didn't.

I'll never understand why I'm getting such great performance from $.99/quart conventional oil. PCVs are not gummed up, internals are spotlessly clean. I can look down at the valves and top of the head in my Mom's 1999 Olds 88 with 170,000 miles and it's not even stained. Just shiny metal.


Yes, I THREW it in there when I was talking about 302's I've owned/worked on over the years.

And to answer your question: Because perhaps you don't drag race your mom's 99 Olds 88?

I'm talking about cars that are RACED, not some guy's mother's daily driver.

In fact, this thread is about a shop that builds engines for RACE cars and SOME street engines. I brought in my experience with my Mustang, which I RACE. As well as experience with other members of the Mustang community, which also RACE. And you drag in your mom's 1999 Olds 88 daily driver.

My Town Car is drag raced (as insane as that sounds) so while my contribution to this thread at least has a leg to stand on, yours sir, does NOT. I was not trying to incite some moronic argument with you, but you have approached my posts and contributions to this thread with disdain and contempt, while providing no real experience yourself in relating to the topic at hand. Other than of course your mom's Oldsmobile...... Which I'm assuming you've never had the oil pan off of, and so you have no real clue as to how clean the inside of that engine is other than looking through the oil cap from the sounds of things......

I have never picked on somebody on this site for running conventional oil. I have asked questions in a polite manner and sometimes questioned people's data, such as the OP's. Especially when I have data/experience that indicates to the contrary.

Your attempt to incite some sort of "E-fight" with me on this is quite puzzling, and I'm unsure of it's purpose.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Sure...you through it in there with your little dribble about how that nasty conventional gummed up your motors and the synthetic didn't.

I'll never understand why I'm getting such great performance from $.99/quart conventional oil. PCVs are not gummed up, internals are spotlessly clean. I can look down at the valves and top of the head in my Mom's 1999 Olds 88 with 170,000 miles and it's not even stained. Just shiny metal.


Yes, I THREW it in there when I was talking about 302's I've owned/worked on over the years.

And to answer your question: Because perhaps you don't drag race your mom's 99 Olds 88?

I'm talking about cars that are RACED, not some guy's mother's daily driver.

In fact, this thread is about a shop that builds engines for RACE cars and SOME street engines. I brought in my experience with my Mustang, which I RACE. As well as experience with other members of the Mustang community, which also RACE. And you drag in your mom's 1999 Olds 88 daily driver.

My Town Car is drag raced (as insane as that sounds) so while my contribution to this thread at least has a leg to stand on, yours sir, does NOT. I was not trying to incite some moronic argument with you, but you have approached my posts and contributions to this thread with disdain and contempt, while providing no real experience yourself in relating to the topic at hand. Other than of course your mom's Oldsmobile...... Which I'm assuming you've never had the oil pan off of, and so you have no real clue as to how clean the inside of that engine is other than looking through the oil cap from the sounds of things......

I have never picked on somebody on this site for running conventional oil. I have asked questions in a polite manner and sometimes questioned people's data, such as the OP's. Especially when I have data/experience that indicates to the contrary.

Your attempt to incite some sort of "E-fight" with me on this is quite puzzling, and I'm unsure of it's purpose.


You're trying to insinuate that conventional oil always leaves deposits cause you've torn down this and that and they were all gummed up. Maybe you're doing something wrong with your engines.
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Are you ripping the PCV systems off and putting breathers on the valve covers, or what???

I don't know where drag racing came into the equation here. If anything, drag racing is easy on oil! In terms of oil temperates, oxidation, and thermal stability. Road racing puts way more stress on oil - way more heat. Heck, driving a passenger car from Phoenix to Flaggstaff in July would stress an engine and engine oil eons more than a couple passes down the 1/4 mile.

Don't tell me I don't have a leg to stand on, especially when you throw out these apples to kasaba melon comparisons. I've serviced a vehicle that now has 220,000 miles with nothing but conventional oil and it's literally spotless inside - same with the Olds with 170,000 miles. Both vehicles still get better than EPA fuel mileage and run lake day 1, with hardly any oil consumption. I don't need to tear the engines down since there is 1) no oil consumption, and 2) the engines run fantastic.

I'm not trying to start an "E" fight, just trying to contradict some of the manure that people spew around here about how conventional oil is going to gum up their engines. It won't if used under appropriate intervals.
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT


You're trying to insinuate that conventional oil always leaves deposits cause you've torn down this and that and they were all gummed up.


Wrong. I never stated that. I said a synthetic oil will keep an engine cleaner. This is a common observation with M1. Some engines are harder on oils than others. So while some engines will remain sparklingly clean with a decent conventional (like that VW engine thread) others end up looking like some of the gummed up Honda's and Toyota's we see.

My EXPERIENCE with 302's has shown that they will develop gunk in the lifter valley area when driven like a Mustang is typically driven. And raced,like they are often raced.

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Maybe you're doing something wrong with your engines.


Other than drag racing them, no.

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Are you ripping the PCV systems off and putting breathers on the valve covers, or what???


Some of the nitrous and supercharged cars are in fact run in this manner, yes. That's what I mean, there's more to this than the simple black and white.

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I don't know where drag racing came into the equation here.


Racing in general. I drag race. So that's where my two cents come in here. This thread was about the advice given by a shop that does racing engines.

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If anything, drag racing is easy on oil! In terms of oil temperates, oxidation, and thermal stability. Road racing puts way more stress on oil - way more heat. Heck, driving a passenger car from Phoenix to Flaggstaff in July would stress an engine and engine oil eons more than a couple passes down the 1/4 mile.


6,500 to 7,000RPM shift points, held, under full load in that RPM range through 3 or 4 gears. It's sheer stability that is stressed as well as the ability to prevent scuffing; prevent valve springs with 500lbs of pressure (for example) on them HAMMERING the camshaft with the lifters. There's stress there. I agree that road racing is much harder on oil but drag racing, especially in the smaller displacement classes where the engines spin ridiculous RPM's, is definitely hard on oil. In fact it's hard on things in general. Then you add in the power-adders like Nitrous, Superchargers, Turbo's....etc. Big difference between the power (and subsequent stresses) these engines are making and the examples you have given.

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Don't tell me I don't have a leg to stand on, especially when you throw out these apples to kasaba melon comparisons.


And you threw out a comparison of your mom's daily driver into a thread that discusses race engines. IMHO, your example is more out in left-field than mine, since my examples actually discuss vehicles being raced.... Go read original post. I wonder how many HP per CI your two example vehicles make in comparison to the sprint car engines the shop that gave the advice that this thread discusses makes?

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I've serviced a vehicle that now has 220,000 miles with nothing but conventional oil and it's literally spotless inside - same with the Olds with 170,000 miles. Both vehicles still get better than EPA fuel mileage and run lake day 1, with hardly any oil consumption. I don't need to tear the engines down since there is 1) no oil consumption, and 2) the engines run fantastic.


And they are stock engines not being raced. Therefore, they don't really "fit in" in this thread as examples. They, like the VW thread, with the spotless engine shows that a well maintained NORMAL engine will stay clean and run well on conventional oil.

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I'm not trying to start an "E" fight, just trying to contradict some of the manure that people spew around here about how conventional oil is going to gum up their engines. It won't if used under appropriate intervals.


And this comes back to the fact that some engines are harder on oils than others. Some people's driving habits are harder on oils than others. People with engines that are far from stock and pushing the power envelope are going to be harder on oil.

The engines that the shop in question builds (from my understanding of the original post in this thread) are performance engines. These are engines that make more power per CI than stock. These engines are going to make more heat, have more cylinder pressure, higher cylinder temperatures and require better cooling than a stock engine.

These are not TYPICAL examples; yours are. And while your maintenance schedule and practises obviously work well on your vehicles, do you feel they would work well on a good friend of mine's 525RWHP supercharged 302? I wouldn't. The blower is lubricated by the engine oil. Similarly, as to how BuickGN's turbo is as well. When you increase the engine's power output, you increase all the internal stresses as well. This has an effect on oil life.

This is also why many performance engine builders recommend diesel oil; because it is designed to function in the high-heat environment of the turbo attached to one of those big engines.

I'm not stating that conventional oil gums up engines. That would be a ridiculous insinuation. What I AM stating is that in PERFORMANCE engines, that are routinely raced, that I have personally seen less build-up with synthetic oils.

I think you and I are on two different pages here........
 
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Originally Posted By: FiremarshalRob
How bout we all have a nice cold beer and a cigar? Cuban Monte #2
Oh great! Now it's all going to be about the Cuban conventionals vs. the Dominican synthetics...
 
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I find it interesting that people assume auto mechanics know oil, lubrication and such. They don't usually, and often they know less then most. Often mechanics are what I call "sophomoric", meaning that they think their expertise on fixing cars emcompasses all things automotive, including oil. Often mechanics are "religious" with their zeal for certain myths and such. This happens in other industries too, of course, and whenever and where ever humans are involved.



I agree. Mechanics rely on myth as much as their customers. Really, we know the addage of "if you want it done right- do it yourself", this applys here.

Mechanics are in part salesmen and rely on a certian fuzzyness to cover-up their own faults and still get paid. Asserting a "tru-isim" about synth vs dino in this specialized application asserts too their "expertness" and justifies their bill. They also DO NOT want to be challenged on it either because they don't think there are people who can do it, but WE can.

Now, I'll rely on the same mythos to speculate that a 302 is an old engine and it probally works "best" on older formula oils. Not bad oils, but synth probally does it little good.

Contrast now with modern "race" engines that need modern oil, period. Are these 302 engine buiders really investigating all possible lube options? fwiw, I read a German Castrol web article on how well their Audi DTM teams, such as Joest, love their SLX 0w-30. Mobil 1 R? Isn't that an oil with a decent race following? The example closet to home is Renewable Lube's Dyson- RS4 Race Oil made of Biosyn. Has everyone here read up all 2 pages on that saga? There is at least an example of credible source doing credible work.

So, let's get this "builder" here in person to ask him what his reseach criteria are. I call bunk.
 
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So, let's get this "builder" here in person to ask him what his reseach criteria are. I call bunk.


As Audi Junkie drew his rhetorical line in the sand ... the gallery filled with hoops and cheers.

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Originally Posted By: FiremarshalRob
How bout we all have a nice cold beer and a cigar? Cuban Monte #2


Right on Rob! Bring on the cold cervezas!!!!!!!!!
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