I was at an engine rebuilding shop the other day and the mechanics and I started discussing engine oils. I asked them what they thought of synthetic and they expressed to me that all the street and race engines which were run strictly on synthetic and needed a re-build all had excessive wear in the valve guides. Their advice, run Pennzoil or another top-quality conventional on the street and run Valvoline VR 50 or Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 on the track.
One to ruffle some feathers
- Thread starter Chris71
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Take your business elsewhere,just because a person runs synthetic oil,has nothing to do with bad valve guides.
You can have bad valve guides with conventional oil as well,so they are shottin smoke up your [censored].
You can have bad valve guides with conventional oil as well,so they are shottin smoke up your [censored].
Ask them how the base oil affects wear...
Why, what a coincidence!
Just the other day I too was talking to some guy who does some stuff on some things sometimes, and whenever he did, he thought one thing he noticed was related to another thing he noticed under some conditions some of the time. Even though he couldn't really explain how or why, he does have a lot of tools and wears a shirt with his name on it (some of the time), so I believe him.
Just the other day I too was talking to some guy who does some stuff on some things sometimes, and whenever he did, he thought one thing he noticed was related to another thing he noticed under some conditions some of the time. Even though he couldn't really explain how or why, he does have a lot of tools and wears a shirt with his name on it (some of the time), so I believe him.
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It is amazing to me that we actually hear this fairly often on BITOG, originating from serious people who know what they're talking about, but nobody seems willing to even consider the possibility that it might deserve to be taken seriously.
A recent similar thread was the one in which BuickGN had heard very similar observations from a top-class race engine builder in his particular niche, and he got pummeled so badly after reporting it that I don't know if he's been heard from since.
I've been saying for years and still have the opinion that from everything I can determine about motor oil, conventionals appear to have no disadvantage and may have an advantage over synthetics in terms of wear. I am ignoring the Grp IV/V question here although I still think it is another relevant one.
A recent similar thread was the one in which BuickGN had heard very similar observations from a top-class race engine builder in his particular niche, and he got pummeled so badly after reporting it that I don't know if he's been heard from since.
I've been saying for years and still have the opinion that from everything I can determine about motor oil, conventionals appear to have no disadvantage and may have an advantage over synthetics in terms of wear. I am ignoring the Grp IV/V question here although I still think it is another relevant one.
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Originally Posted By: Chris71
Don't shoot me! I'm only the messenger boy. This was at a reputable shop which does many Sprint car engines, late-model engines and passenger car engines. I'm only stating what they say they have found.
Guess my junk, and the Mustang community in general kind of flies in the face of that logic........
Don't shoot me! I'm only the messenger boy. This was at a reputable shop which does many Sprint car engines, late-model engines and passenger car engines. I'm only stating what they say they have found.
Guess my junk, and the Mustang community in general kind of flies in the face of that logic........
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Originally Posted By: Chris71
Thanks, Glenn. I'm more prone to believe an engine builder with 30+ years of experience rather than a few people who have never done anything more to a car than change oil. Don't worry, I'm here to stay and I refuse to be run off.
I've had the same talk with a local engine builder. He builds a lot of Cascar engines. He had a real hankering for the Kendall synthetic oils, particularly the diesel grade.
My cam grinder was running 0w20 in his stock '93 Cobra longblocked (302) notch, which went bottom 11's on motor.........
I'm sure Exxon-Mobil's fleet testing also goes against this logic...........
This game can be played all day. Engine builders become attached to certain oils and certain grades of oils which they have found work for them. MANY of them like diesel oils from what I've found.
The diesel oil thing makes sense..... but the attachment, much like my attachment to M1, is because of good luck and experience with a product that has shown to work. It doesn't mean there isn't something better out there...... but why mess with a good thing?
Thanks, Glenn. I'm more prone to believe an engine builder with 30+ years of experience rather than a few people who have never done anything more to a car than change oil. Don't worry, I'm here to stay and I refuse to be run off.
I've had the same talk with a local engine builder. He builds a lot of Cascar engines. He had a real hankering for the Kendall synthetic oils, particularly the diesel grade.
My cam grinder was running 0w20 in his stock '93 Cobra longblocked (302) notch, which went bottom 11's on motor.........
I'm sure Exxon-Mobil's fleet testing also goes against this logic...........
This game can be played all day. Engine builders become attached to certain oils and certain grades of oils which they have found work for them. MANY of them like diesel oils from what I've found.
The diesel oil thing makes sense..... but the attachment, much like my attachment to M1, is because of good luck and experience with a product that has shown to work. It doesn't mean there isn't something better out there...... but why mess with a good thing?
Congrats on meeting some real pros in person Chris. Sprint cars and short circle track racing and builders were the type of technicians I grew up around(in shops, garages under shad etreees and pit row) I would take those pros experience much more seriously than that of websperts.
I know some great butchers. Man they cut the perfect steak everytime and can bone a chicken in a heartbeat.....but they don't know diddly about raising cattle or chickens.......point is....just because a guy/gal can build a motor doesn't mean they know diddly about oil.
I wonder how someone rebuilbing a motor would know what oil had been run in it ?
Taste ?
Taste ?
I'm one of those people that has had problems with synthetic in a performance application. With M1 15-50 I had problems with piston scuffing and wrist pins getting tight. Never had a problem with the cheap Superflo 20-50. I just put some new heads on and cylinders looked good so I'm going to give Redline 40wt a try. This way I know dino worked in this motor and I'm giving synthetic a try in the exact same motor. I'll be sure to post what I find in another 15K miles which might be 10 years from now.
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!
Calm down man. You can expect to get challenged when offering a third party "advise" with nothing to back it up. I mean a statement from some unknown third party that conventional's are the bee's knee's versus synthetics will bring folks who doubt the qualifications of such a statement. Chill out.....
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Quote:
race engines which were run strictly on synthetic and needed a re-build all had excessive wear in the valve guides.
Well, I don't own race engines, but is there some reason why valve guides are an item lubricated by design? No passenger car engine that I know of has a lubed valve guide. We go to great lengths to protect and restore valve guide seals to prevent oil from ever seeing the things.
Is this different for race engines ..and if so, how would a synthetic oil deliver poorer incidental/accidental lubrication to an item that's not supposed to see it to begin with??
Keep in mind, this is a question.
race engines which were run strictly on synthetic and needed a re-build all had excessive wear in the valve guides.
Well, I don't own race engines, but is there some reason why valve guides are an item lubricated by design? No passenger car engine that I know of has a lubed valve guide. We go to great lengths to protect and restore valve guide seals to prevent oil from ever seeing the things.
Is this different for race engines ..and if so, how would a synthetic oil deliver poorer incidental/accidental lubrication to an item that's not supposed to see it to begin with??
Keep in mind, this is a question.
Originally Posted By: Chris71
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!
Well what did you expect. I mean, c'mon, we all know here that synthetics are the cats meow! (tongue planted firmly in cheek)
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!
Well what did you expect. I mean, c'mon, we all know here that synthetics are the cats meow! (tongue planted firmly in cheek)
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
race engines which were run strictly on synthetic and needed a re-build all had excessive wear in the valve guides.
Well, I don't own race engines, but is there some reason why valve guides are an item lubricated by design? No passenger car engine that I know of has a lubed valve guide. We go to great lengths to protect and restore valve guide seals to prevent oil from ever seeing the things.
Is this different for race engines ..and if so, how would a synthetic oil deliver poorer incidental/accidental lubrication to an item that's not supposed to see it to begin with??
Keep in mind, this is a question.
While I know the valveguides aren't supposed to see oil, some factory engines do let oil get to the guides. The GNs had no valve stem seals on the exhaust valve, the heads were not machined to accept seals. I know some racing engine builders leave exhaust seals off. Going off of a distant and bad memory, aren't you supposed to leave the seals off with titanium valves?
Quote:
race engines which were run strictly on synthetic and needed a re-build all had excessive wear in the valve guides.
Well, I don't own race engines, but is there some reason why valve guides are an item lubricated by design? No passenger car engine that I know of has a lubed valve guide. We go to great lengths to protect and restore valve guide seals to prevent oil from ever seeing the things.
Is this different for race engines ..and if so, how would a synthetic oil deliver poorer incidental/accidental lubrication to an item that's not supposed to see it to begin with??
Keep in mind, this is a question.
While I know the valveguides aren't supposed to see oil, some factory engines do let oil get to the guides. The GNs had no valve stem seals on the exhaust valve, the heads were not machined to accept seals. I know some racing engine builders leave exhaust seals off. Going off of a distant and bad memory, aren't you supposed to leave the seals off with titanium valves?
Originally Posted By: Chris71
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!
I'm certainly not a know-it-all and appreciate the fact that you passed on some information. Some people will agree with the opinion expressed by the mechanics, and others will disagree. Because some people - perhaps the majority - disagree with what your mechanics said doesn't mean they are "automatically" discrediting you. Based on their experience and research they disagree...that's all.
The only oil recommended for my BMW is synthetic oil, and only those synthetics that meet BMW's longlife spec. Mercedes also recommends synthetic oil, as do a number of other manufacturers for specific models (typically higher performance models). IMHO I value the engineering resources of the vehicle manufacturer over an opinion offered by a mechanic.
My BMW 740iL has about 100,000 miles on it and has always been run on synthetic oil (primarily GC). I change the oil every 12,000 km (7,500 miles) and I have never had to add a drop of oil between changes. There is no sign of sludge or varnish accumulation. During the bi-annual emission test recently, the CO was 0.0% and NO was 2 ppm (385 ppm allowed) the technician commented on how clean the engine was running.
From what I have read, and from my own experience, synthetic oil offers additional protection at higher temperatures (the BMW 4.4 litre V8 DOHC is a hot-running engine) and better cold start performance (I live north of Toronto...). It's certainly doing the job in my car.
I suppose all you f**king know-it-alls are experts on oils now just because you can drive to Wal Mart or the Amsoil salesman's house and do your own oil changes? I tried to pass some info on to you and you automatically discredit it and why? "Well, I've never heard that or none of my friends have ever told me that" Go ahead and stick with your $10 a bottle oil. As a matter of fact, stick it, period!
I'm certainly not a know-it-all and appreciate the fact that you passed on some information. Some people will agree with the opinion expressed by the mechanics, and others will disagree. Because some people - perhaps the majority - disagree with what your mechanics said doesn't mean they are "automatically" discrediting you. Based on their experience and research they disagree...that's all.
The only oil recommended for my BMW is synthetic oil, and only those synthetics that meet BMW's longlife spec. Mercedes also recommends synthetic oil, as do a number of other manufacturers for specific models (typically higher performance models). IMHO I value the engineering resources of the vehicle manufacturer over an opinion offered by a mechanic.
My BMW 740iL has about 100,000 miles on it and has always been run on synthetic oil (primarily GC). I change the oil every 12,000 km (7,500 miles) and I have never had to add a drop of oil between changes. There is no sign of sludge or varnish accumulation. During the bi-annual emission test recently, the CO was 0.0% and NO was 2 ppm (385 ppm allowed) the technician commented on how clean the engine was running.
From what I have read, and from my own experience, synthetic oil offers additional protection at higher temperatures (the BMW 4.4 litre V8 DOHC is a hot-running engine) and better cold start performance (I live north of Toronto...). It's certainly doing the job in my car.
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