I have an old 1970's Swedish made Volvo MD11C marine diesel and transmission. The owners manual calls for a 10W20 or SAE 20 wt CD grade oil for temperatures above 50 degrees F. That seems awful light for the tropics. Oh yeah, the transmission is a wet clutch type, so the newer oils do cause me some concerns along with some of the issues reported of bore glazing being more likely in these old engines with the newer HDEO. I have read that a lot of old farm tractors were spec'd for 20 wt. Why so light back then? Am I over thinking this? Thoughts. Thanks.
Old marine diesel oil
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You can probably run a 30w or 10w30 in there.
"I have read that a lot of old farm tractors were spec'd for 20 wt. Why so light back then? Am I over thinking this? Thoughts. Thanks. [/quote]
I have a 1947 Case tractor, model D. According to the service manuel under "Engine Oil Recommendations."
SAE No. 30 for summer or temperature above 90 degrees F.
SAE No. 20 for spring and fall or temerature between 90 degrees and 32 degrees F.
SAE No. 10 for winter or temperature between 32 degree F and + 10 degrees F.
SAE No. 10-W for temperature below +10 degrees F.
I have a 1947 Case tractor, model D. According to the service manuel under "Engine Oil Recommendations."
SAE No. 30 for summer or temperature above 90 degrees F.
SAE No. 20 for spring and fall or temerature between 90 degrees and 32 degrees F.
SAE No. 10 for winter or temperature between 32 degree F and + 10 degrees F.
SAE No. 10-W for temperature below +10 degrees F.
I would try and get non detergent for the transmission.
Thanks to everyone who has replied,
Originally Posted By: Doog
You can probably run a 30w or 10w30 in there.
Doog, Sae 30 has been what I have been inclined to use especially in the motor and maybe the 20 in the tranny.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
What's the thermostat temp, if there even is one? A lot of older water cooled marine engines run about 125-130'F. That would go well with a 20 weight.
eljefino, it is interesting that you should mention that. I never considered that originally these engines were all raw water cooled with about 160 degree thermostats. Later on they were changed to a closed system with antifreeze that is cooled with raw water. This is what I have, and the thermostat is rated to be fully open at 190 degrees. However, the raw water is first pumped through the transmission then onto the closed system for the engine cooling. So, I have no idea what temps the tranny runs. I assume it would be lower than the engine though. Oh yeah, I forgot they did change the spec for the engine near the end of production to 20W30 for above 50 degrees but they did not change the spec on the tranny.
GreeCguy, the specs for your tractor would seem to make more sense to me, and that is why I am questioning the 20 wt spec Volvo used for this engine in higher temps. They only specified above and below 50 degrees. I don't know what the high summer temps are in Sweden, but I'm sure it is lower than South FL. I just wonder if they took that into account. I think since they changed the spec on the engine to a 20W30 at the end of production, a 30 would be fine in the engine particularly when I consider what eljefino brought up about the lower temp of a raw water cooled engine. But the transmission is what really bothers me, and it doesn't look like they change the 20 weight recommendation on it. I have already had to have it repaired once because of a worm out clutch, and I don't want to do it again.
Donald, why non detergent for the transmission? The transmission is a splash type lubrication system and uses ball bearings. Is that reason or am I just completely off base.
Thanks again.
Originally Posted By: Doog
You can probably run a 30w or 10w30 in there.
Doog, Sae 30 has been what I have been inclined to use especially in the motor and maybe the 20 in the tranny.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
What's the thermostat temp, if there even is one? A lot of older water cooled marine engines run about 125-130'F. That would go well with a 20 weight.
eljefino, it is interesting that you should mention that. I never considered that originally these engines were all raw water cooled with about 160 degree thermostats. Later on they were changed to a closed system with antifreeze that is cooled with raw water. This is what I have, and the thermostat is rated to be fully open at 190 degrees. However, the raw water is first pumped through the transmission then onto the closed system for the engine cooling. So, I have no idea what temps the tranny runs. I assume it would be lower than the engine though. Oh yeah, I forgot they did change the spec for the engine near the end of production to 20W30 for above 50 degrees but they did not change the spec on the tranny.
GreeCguy, the specs for your tractor would seem to make more sense to me, and that is why I am questioning the 20 wt spec Volvo used for this engine in higher temps. They only specified above and below 50 degrees. I don't know what the high summer temps are in Sweden, but I'm sure it is lower than South FL. I just wonder if they took that into account. I think since they changed the spec on the engine to a 20W30 at the end of production, a 30 would be fine in the engine particularly when I consider what eljefino brought up about the lower temp of a raw water cooled engine. But the transmission is what really bothers me, and it doesn't look like they change the 20 weight recommendation on it. I have already had to have it repaired once because of a worm out clutch, and I don't want to do it again.
Donald, why non detergent for the transmission? The transmission is a splash type lubrication system and uses ball bearings. Is that reason or am I just completely off base.
Thanks again.
Hullthumper, can you adjust the clutch? My old Case "D" has a wet clutch that is adjustable and ocassionally (like every couple of years) needs a little tightening.
As a side note, the oil for this wet clutch on my Case is the same oil that's in the motor. It circulates through the engine, into the clutch housing and then back into the engine. Whenever you change the oil, there is a drain plug on the bottom of the clutch housing that needs to be removed as well as the pan drain plug - about half a quart will come out.
The reason I ask is because I have tried using an STP type additive in the past to reduce oil burning. The STP product circulated through the wet clutch and the clutch started to slip. If your wet clutch system is like mine, did you or possible someone else throw in a bottle of STP or something similar, (motor honey, etc)? That will make them slip, (you'll swear your clutch is worn out). I "fixed" mine with a couple of quick oil changes to "wash out" the STP and haven't had a problem with the clutch since then.
As a side note, the oil for this wet clutch on my Case is the same oil that's in the motor. It circulates through the engine, into the clutch housing and then back into the engine. Whenever you change the oil, there is a drain plug on the bottom of the clutch housing that needs to be removed as well as the pan drain plug - about half a quart will come out.
The reason I ask is because I have tried using an STP type additive in the past to reduce oil burning. The STP product circulated through the wet clutch and the clutch started to slip. If your wet clutch system is like mine, did you or possible someone else throw in a bottle of STP or something similar, (motor honey, etc)? That will make them slip, (you'll swear your clutch is worn out). I "fixed" mine with a couple of quick oil changes to "wash out" the STP and haven't had a problem with the clutch since then.
GreeCguy,
I wish I could and thanks for the warning. The tranny and engine does not share the same sump oil, but Volvo recommended the same oil in both, and the only way to adjust is by shimming during a rebuild. Really sucks. I have read some post by others about these transmissions that have warned against "too slick of an oil" which is why I have shied away from multi-viscosity oils to avoid VI's and friction modifiers such as Moly. Wearing of the friction linings is the number one cause of having to rebuild these, and Volvo no longer makes them nor will they provide the info on their dimensions, ie thickness of the lining. To make matters worse, Volvo doesn't have such a good reputation about continuing to produce parts for their older stuff. Super motors. They started out as the MD2 in the 50's and several are still around. I guess they have to do something to nudge people into buying a new engine every so often after all making motors is their business. I was looking at the viscosity chart last night and noticed that SAE 20 motor oil is the same or very close to the same viscosity of SAE 80 gear oil if I did not misinterpret it. That does ease some of my concerns about using a 20 wt in the tranny, but it still sort of makes my hair stand up on the back of my neck. Man, 20 wt is sure thin. All the reading I have done though seems to point in the direction that people tend to think thicker is better when in fact it isn't. So maybe second guessing the engineers that spec'd it is stupidity on my part. All I know for sure is I don't want to have to rebuild this SOB again especially because of using the wrong oil. It took me six months just to find the parts I needed.
I wish I could and thanks for the warning. The tranny and engine does not share the same sump oil, but Volvo recommended the same oil in both, and the only way to adjust is by shimming during a rebuild. Really sucks. I have read some post by others about these transmissions that have warned against "too slick of an oil" which is why I have shied away from multi-viscosity oils to avoid VI's and friction modifiers such as Moly. Wearing of the friction linings is the number one cause of having to rebuild these, and Volvo no longer makes them nor will they provide the info on their dimensions, ie thickness of the lining. To make matters worse, Volvo doesn't have such a good reputation about continuing to produce parts for their older stuff. Super motors. They started out as the MD2 in the 50's and several are still around. I guess they have to do something to nudge people into buying a new engine every so often after all making motors is their business. I was looking at the viscosity chart last night and noticed that SAE 20 motor oil is the same or very close to the same viscosity of SAE 80 gear oil if I did not misinterpret it. That does ease some of my concerns about using a 20 wt in the tranny, but it still sort of makes my hair stand up on the back of my neck. Man, 20 wt is sure thin. All the reading I have done though seems to point in the direction that people tend to think thicker is better when in fact it isn't. So maybe second guessing the engineers that spec'd it is stupidity on my part. All I know for sure is I don't want to have to rebuild this SOB again especially because of using the wrong oil. It took me six months just to find the parts I needed.
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Perhaps that's the reason Donald recommended the non-detergent 20 weight oil. While I haven't looked in about a year, the local "Tractor Supply" sold non-detergent 10 weight and 20 weight in 2 gallon jugs and 5 gallon buckets. The only thing I would be worried about there is foaming - but then maybe I'm over thinking this as well.
I feel your pain. While I have no experience with boats, (other than to ride them at Disney World), my tractor experience leads me down the yellow brick road of heavy transmission/gear oil. The last time I changed the gear oil in my "D", it was an all day job as it took forever for the 10 gallons to drain out and then even longer to pour ten gallons of molasses thick stuff back in.
I feel your pain. While I have no experience with boats, (other than to ride them at Disney World), my tractor experience leads me down the yellow brick road of heavy transmission/gear oil. The last time I changed the gear oil in my "D", it was an all day job as it took forever for the 10 gallons to drain out and then even longer to pour ten gallons of molasses thick stuff back in.
It is very common for the boat transmissions mated to a 2 stroke Detroit diesel to use the same SAE 40 CF-2 engine oil in both. Chevron Delo 100 is one commonly used oil. Kind'a old fashioned oil, but still it is current production.
Many motorcycles have wet clutches, and diesel engine oil is widely used. Shell Rotella oils are said to meet this wet clutch spec, JASO MA. I've used Schaeffer's #9000 5W-40 diesel engine oil in my wet clutch motorcycles with fine results. Schaeffer's #707 20W-50 motorcycle oil is JASO MA wet clutch certified and contains their two friction modifiers, Micron Moly and Penetro.
So...many modern oils do work well with wet clutches, although we know nothing about the clutch friction material characteristics in this old Volvo transmission. There should be boat forums where people have current knowledge of what is working well in these engines.
Many motorcycles have wet clutches, and diesel engine oil is widely used. Shell Rotella oils are said to meet this wet clutch spec, JASO MA. I've used Schaeffer's #9000 5W-40 diesel engine oil in my wet clutch motorcycles with fine results. Schaeffer's #707 20W-50 motorcycle oil is JASO MA wet clutch certified and contains their two friction modifiers, Micron Moly and Penetro.
So...many modern oils do work well with wet clutches, although we know nothing about the clutch friction material characteristics in this old Volvo transmission. There should be boat forums where people have current knowledge of what is working well in these engines.
In the marine industry it isn't "old fashioned" at all to run a mono-grade in the transmission, in fact it is still speced in new marine gears.
Don't run a non detergent motor oil in your transmission, just the current-speced grade.
The reason for mono-grade, at least as it was explained to me, was because of the way the gears are cut in the transmission it will destroy a multi-grade in short order. That info came from a Twin Disc engineer.
Don't run a non detergent motor oil in your transmission, just the current-speced grade.
The reason for mono-grade, at least as it was explained to me, was because of the way the gears are cut in the transmission it will destroy a multi-grade in short order. That info came from a Twin Disc engineer.
Ken2, thanks I have been looking at the Delo 100 CF2 grade stuff. I don't think it meets the Jaso standard though but the Rotella does according to them.
Roadrunner1, thanks. Yeah they are spur gears with a hypoid type cut in the shaft the cone clutch rides on. It also uses ball bearings.
As far as the friction material goes, I keep getting that it is asbestos of all things.
GreeCguy, I have to hang upside down like a bat to do anything much with the transmission. All kinds of fun. Thank goodness I don't have to hang there and pour in the stuff you have to use.
Roadrunner1, thanks. Yeah they are spur gears with a hypoid type cut in the shaft the cone clutch rides on. It also uses ball bearings.
As far as the friction material goes, I keep getting that it is asbestos of all things.
GreeCguy, I have to hang upside down like a bat to do anything much with the transmission. All kinds of fun. Thank goodness I don't have to hang there and pour in the stuff you have to use.
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