Ok to use cheap oil filters w/M1 or any other syn?

[02zx9r]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Fram oil filters are fine.


i used to use frams and had no problems with them, i guess they must be doing ok if people are still using them and they are still around.

I have been using purolator pure ones as I have a lot of them for the car and bike I got at buy 1 get 1 from amazon for $5.88

 

[FZ1]

The M1 filter is more heavily put together than most others. I'm on the highway alot at night (Bass Fishing Addiction)and I don't want some unseen object to hop up and enter and/or exit my oil filter in rural America at 3 am,so I run the M1.

 

[MatchboxCar]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Most of this comes from these oil filter studies where they cut open filters and just look at them. Any oil filter study that simply looks at filters and dismisses the Fram based on a fiberboard endcap is completely stupid. I don't think their opinion is of much value if that is how they are going to evaluate a filter.

If there is a technical reason not to have fiberboard endcap's -- then argue that technical reason. If there is a test that shows fiberboard endcaps don't perform their function as well as metal endcaps, then present the tests you've done to show this. Otherwise, the opinion "I don't like the looks" of the endcaps is completely without merit. To then completely dismiss or disparage a product based simply on the looks of one of the components that you have no technical reason to do so -- is also without merit.


Exactly. I have found no correlation in silicon or any other contaminate in my hundreds of UOAs over the years. Whether I used a cheap FRAM or an expensive Mobil 1/WIX/Honda(01)..... It has been my experinece that that cardboard ends, though troubling in theory, last perfectly fine in my oil drains out to 12,000 miles.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: 02zx9r
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Fram oil filters are fine.


i used to use frams and had no problems with them, i guess they must be doing ok if people are still using them and they are still around.

I have been using purolator pure ones as I have a lot of them for the car and bike I got at buy 1 get 1 from amazon for $5.88


I`ll admit too,I used the orange Frams for years and never a single issue. I`ll probably go back to the Nissan OEM filters. They`re only about $5. M1`s are a bit pricey.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Unlike essentially every other filter on the market, Fram uses the fragile tips of the octagon shaped cardboard endcap at the front of the filter to center the media element inside the can. The thin cardboard tips are easily deformed and, as a result, the element can easily shift during assembly (and possibly during use). If the media shifts even slightly, oil can partially bypass the filter. In addition, as the media shifts the ADBV also shifts and the resulting misalignment can prevent the ADBV from sealing (and lead to start-up rattle).

The only US Fram filter that doesn’t use the tips of the front cardboard endcap to center the element and ADBV is the Extended Guard. It uses strong metal tabs of the metal endcaps to ensure alignment.

Except for the use as an structural/alignment feature, I can’t fault the use of cardboard inside an oil filter. It would seem that cardboard can be just as compatible as the treated paper used for the media. However, thin un-corrugated cardboard lacks the strength and durability needed for a structural use like holding the media element in place.

 

[02zx9r]

But to answer the original question, I believe that the cheaper filters are ok with synthetic up to 7.5K+

 

[Gary Allan]

Value. That's the main reason for not using a Fram. Price. It's not so much from a performance standpoint. Many nitrile parts will fatigue over a certain number of miles ..not a biggie in real terms. There are typically better buys out there for that level of performance. They don't sponsor NASCAR or NHRA and put more money into the product than they do into the marketing. The cost between one filter over another is down to a few more pennies in fundamental material costs. The big costs are marketing and ROI for the distributors/vendors.

 

[Bamaro]

Use synthetic and a 'cheap' filter like supertech or pureolator, change it per manufacturers specifications and sleep well at night. Nothing to worry about, at least with your filter.

 

[mechtech2]

I am not too concerned with the filtering of an oil filter. Even the best allow the harmful small particles through.
I don't think it makes a difference in that respect -no one will ever tell the difference in real life.

BUT, high quality and properly proportioned anti-drainback valves, and good construction, are important - and much more so in today's cars.

I use a Motorcraft filter in my ZX2.

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:
fragile tips of the octagon shaped cardboard endcap at the front of the filter to center the media element inside the can. The thin cardboard tips are easily deformed and, as a result, the element can easily shift during assembly (and possibly during use). … However, thin un-corrugated cardboard lacks the strength and durability needed for a structural use like holding the media element in place.


This sounds more like idle speculation. You have evidence for this? Besides, it isn't just plain fiberboard -- it's thermal-resin-reinforced fiberboard (AFAIK).

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: 02zx9r
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I always use either a Nissan OEM filter or a Mobil 1 filter. I still change every 3000miles/3 months whichever comes first.


what is the M1 filter you are using? If you want I will send you $5 for the filter and I will run it out to 10K if it fits!


It`s the M1 208.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt

This sounds more like idle speculation. You have evidence for this? Besides, it isn't just plain fiberboard -- it's thermal-resin-reinforced fiberboard (AFAIK).

Call it what you wish, but there is no shortage of cases where start-up rattle was reduced or eliminated by changing out Fram oil filters. Fram’s ADBV is thin and floppy and its location is poorly controlled, which often results in poor sealing.

Since most “failures” of full flow oil filters cause no engine damage or significant wear and go unnoticed by the user, the manufacturer can get by with a lousy product. The ADBV can leak and all you get is start-up rattle. The filter can be partially bypassing all the time and it goes unnoticed and causes little if any damage. The only things the manufacturers worry much about is a filter that leaks, ruptures, or becomes blocked, all of which can lead to catastrophic engine failure.

Since there is typically very little detectable in-use difference between oil filters, the manufacturers use marketing to sell their product. That’s why we have crinkle paint for grip, wrench flats that aren’t usually needed, and to-each-their-own specmanship on filtering ability and capacity.

I open every used oil filter from all my engines. In doing so, I’ve found more than one filter that’s failed. I’ve seen split pleats, brittle pleats, and misaligned ADBVs. After looking at dozens of used filters of various brands, you learn which brands are usually in good shape at the end of the OCI, which brands often appear spent at the end of a normal OCI, and which brands are more prone to fail.

 

[Kitto]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt

This sounds more like idle speculation. You have evidence for this? Besides, it isn't just plain fiberboard -- it's thermal-resin-reinforced fiberboard (AFAIK).

Call it what you wish, but there is no shortage of cases where start-up rattle was reduced or eliminated by changing out Fram oil filters. Fram’s ADBV is thin and floppy and its location is poorly controlled, which often results in poor sealing.

Since most “failures” of full flow oil filters cause no engine damage or significant wear and go unnoticed by the user, the manufacturer can get by with a lousy product. The ADBV can leak and all you get is start-up rattle. The filter can be partially bypassing all the time and it goes unnoticed and causes little if any damage. The only things the manufacturers worry much about is a filter that leaks, ruptures, or becomes blocked, all of which can lead to catastrophic engine failure.

Since there is typically very little detectable in-use difference between oil filters, the manufacturers use marketing to sell their product. That’s why we have crinkle paint for grip, wrench flats that aren’t usually needed, and to-each-their-own specmanship on filtering ability and capacity.

I open every used oil filter from all my engines. In doing so, I’ve found more than one filter that’s failed. I’ve seen split pleats, brittle pleats, and misaligned ADBVs. After looking at dozens of used filters of various brands, you learn which brands are usually in good shape at the end of the OCI, which brands often appear spent at the end of a normal OCI, and which brands are more prone to fail.

From your own observation, which brand is prone to fail, and which brand is in good shape at the end of OCI?

 

[Drivebelt]

Quote:
Call it what you wish, but there is no shortage of cases where start-up rattle was reduced or eliminated by changing out Fram oil filters.


I agree here, there is anecdotal evidence pointing to ADBV's that don't seal well on occasion. But is this just a problem with low end Frams like the EG? All Frams? Or, it is the case that cheaper low-end filters all pretty well have generally lousy ADBV's? I recall reading some test where they tested the ADBV's on some filters and the author stated that 90% of the ADBV's didn't really seal that well -- across various brands. (I tried googling that report but couldn't find it).

And this relates to my point. Lets point to the ADBV's as a possible weak aspect of the filter because we at least have some evidence for it. I've seen no convincing evidence that the fiberboard endcaps themselves are technically a bad design and detract from the performance of the filter compared to metal endcaps, or, are the cause of this issue.

And consider the following: suppose 1% of Fram EG's have a poorly formed "rubber" ADBV that doesn't seal that well because of tolerances in the manufacturing process that turn out the occasional turd. Someone installs a Fram EG and it makes the hydraulic valves rattle a little on startup because it isn't sealing well. If other inexpensive filters have the same poor ADBV rate (1%) then he would have a 99% chance of solving the problem with another brand of filter (ie. 99% chance of getting a good filter). But just buying another Fram EG would also gives that person a 99% chance of solving his startup problem too. That doesn't prove to me that other inexpensive filters necessarily have better ADBV's. Particularly if most people are using Frams -- then most problems would be reported by Fram users simply because more people are using them in the first place. Telling me someone switched out their Fram and solved the startup problem really may not tell you much here.

If one is designing a filter and one has to meet strict manufacturing cost targets. Perhaps using fiberboard endcaps would allow the engineer to use a better filter medium. What do you want? A filter that filters better or one with pretty metal endcaps and a lousy cheaper filter medium.

 

[Gary Allan]

ADBV, in general, aren't spec'd to hold 24/7. They're spec'd (typically) to hold for xxx amount of time. It's original purpose was to slow media backflushing. Now certain engines have required silicon ADBV by the OEM ..but there's no mandate that you use them. I have to conclude that this is for customer complaint issues (Ford being the one manufacturer that actually makes a specific OEM aftermarket replacement that comes with a silicon ADBV). If there was any damaging element to it, then there would be some prohibition on nitrile ADBV from the OEM.

I also have to conclude that the assembly line filter is a bid job and done in the absolute cheapest manner possible and still meet OEM spec's.

Every nitrile ADBV (in my usage on one engine - my wife's 4.0) has resulted in startup rattle after about 3k miles. This has included ST, PP, and ...a rebadged Fram. YMMV

There have been instances where the cardboard/composit end cap has caused issues with the bypass and/or ADBV where a metal end cap would have prevented it (shifting of the valve due to lack of rigid backing). These are rare instances ..but

 

[jorton]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Why not split down the middle costwise and use a Wix filter? It's a high quality filter at a reasonable price.


TallPaul I took your advice and bought the WIX but after cutting open the used Motorcraft fl400s I'm tempted to go back next o/c. It's in good condition. The media pleats are tough and bendable. And I love the simple design. Baseplate, can and bpv are 1 piece and inside are adbv, media and a spring. I think it's the same disign as WIX.

 

[PT1]

I get my wix filters from http://www.fleetfilter.com in bulk. Way too easy and the cost is very competitive for a quality product.

 

[Lazy JW]

Originally Posted By: 02zx9r
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Fram oil filters are fine.


i used to use frams and had no problems with them, i guess they must be doing ok if people are still using them and they are still around....


Same here, I ran Fram for years on my rigs that needed filters. My Volkswagens had no trouble going 100K+ miles with no oil filter at all, so I truly believe this filter controversy is way over-rated.

But I learned here on BITOG that I can get a better filter for less money, as Bill in Utah is fond of saying. I have switched to SuperTech oil and filters for most of my useage.

I ran ST 5w-30 Full Synthetic with a ST filter last winter in my rebuilt 81 F-150 300 Six for six months and 9000 miles. I am now changing oil at the equinoxes, no more winter oil changes for me.
Joe

 

[Scout1]

It just comes down to which you think is a better design. I used the Fram orange can for years with no problems, but now I've done some reading on the web where guys have cut open filters and commented on what they saw. I've never read of anybody saying the Fram end caps being a "good" design feature and it looks to me like it is a cost savings move. So I'd rather put my money into something like a Pure One filter. Isn't that what this web-site is all about... picking the "best" product for your money?

 

[bmwtechguy]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt

If there is a technical reason not to have fiberboard endcap's -- then argue that technical reason. If there is a test that shows fiberboard endcaps don't perform their function as well as metal endcaps, then present the tests you've done to show this. Otherwise, the opinion "I don't like the looks" of the endcaps is completely without merit. To then completely dismiss or disparage a product based simply on the looks of one of the components that you have no technical reason to do so -- is also without merit.

I quit using Frams years ago before the internet, etc, based on taking multiple Fram filters off after a 3k mile OCI and finding the element very loose inside (rattling around). This was on different vehicles with different part number filters. That was enough for me to swear off from using Frams again. I had enough sense to know that if things were loose in the can, anything could happen like a blockage or lack of filtering. I'm pretty sure that the quality of the orange can filters has not been upgraded since then from the looks of those that have been cut open. Funny, at the time, I thought I was buying the best or close to it...

The MC filters are very good for the money and my first choice in a value filter. I wish the applications were not so limited, though. My next choice for a value filter is ST, STP or Purolator.