Oils that contain moly

[Patman]

I noticed on Maxima.org that oil analysis results with GTX show a tiny bit of moly. I wonder if someone used this oil for a long time, if they'd get the right amount of moly that they need eventually? With a smaller amount it might take more oil changes with it, but eventually in the long run wouldn't you end up with the same amount of moly bonding to the engine parts as an oil with tons of moly?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

remember Patman,

Moly like most all additives is sacrificial and unless there's enough in there to replace the ones that give up, then it just depletes off.

Moly is not cheap. This is why you find oils that have any in there are very limited in the amount or they charge 2-3times what some other competitive oil would be like redline for example, normal $4.00 synth(mobil) and redlines is 7-10.00 depending where you get it. Base difference, they have Loads of moly.

Schaeffers, having been doing this as many years as they have, come to determine that it is not nessary to overload moly but is nessary to not underload thus having a good balance. Too little would disapate too soon and not maintaing the wear protection thus if extending drains, you would deplete it, Thus the next time you put in fresh oil, you start the cylce back over and have to replate therefore depleting the MO sooner than having it still in there. On the other hand, if wanting the oil to be able to extend with enough MO, Some apply too much moly and that just cost way too much to stay competitive.

Also keep in mind that in the case of Schaeffers, They are using a sub ingrediant, Pentro,and ingrediant that is like some of these secret blends by competitors.

The other possiblity that you may want to keep in mind is that not all moly's are the same and that some react differently than others as for suspension and such.

[ July 06, 2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[dragboat]

Patman,
Please don't take this wrong but it is obvious from your posts you want to use a oil with moly,,you have stated so. Why not use the Shaeffers? It is a proven package that looks very good in the tests at was it 9k miles? It does not cost that much money in my opinion and if you used it for say 5k there would be no need for analysis thus making for further savings.
If you are not using it because of where you live and cannot obtain it,,where there is a will there is a way,,I have a friend 30 minutes from you.

 

[Patman]

I am very interested in using Schaeffers actually, however I need to find a place in Toronto that sells it first. I really don't want to have to rely on getting it from other sources all the time, as that might be a hassle, I'd rather just walk into a place that sells it, plunk down my Mastercard and off I go. Mail order is out of the question, it costs way too much to ship stuff here (for instance, my Auto-rx cost me $75 CDN!!!) And I don't want to drive 2 hours round trip to pick
it up either. So as much as I'd like to use it, I have to think practical as well. I have an 8 month old baby, so I can't just tell my wife "I'll be back in 2 hours, I'm off to get some oil" (although if
I did say that, she wouldn't be surprised!)

Also, it has to be cost effective too. If it ends up selling for $10 a quart up here, then that's a bit too much IMO. I do believe Schaeffers is an excellent oil that shows amazing results, but I just have to be realistic here.

One point here about oils that don't contain enough moly to be effective. If a low amount of moly doesn't do anything, why do they even bother to put it in their oil to begin with? Seems the oil company is then just wasting money.

 

[dragboat]

Does Max Life advertise to have Moly in it? If they don't there must be some reason to use the little amount they do.It might be stick in you internal engine parts but I think traces would have showed up?

I have concerns using a Moly over the long run,,I know others have had good luck BUT,,it is hard to find out which Moly one is getting in his oil.The one that eats on metal does not sound too appealing to me and whatever the moly is that we have to use to break in a camshaft is wicked on the ring pack if not removed immediately and changed a couple quick times

On the shipping,,it is UPS and Fed EX that gets a guy. Try USPS Ground. Much better rates and if sent as a gift no duties

[ July 06, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[DNS]

quote:

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Originally posted by satterfi:
I know very little about Suzuki oil. My Suzuki bike gets Mobil 1 15w50. Overkill, I'm sure. It calls for 10w40 like all Japanese sport bikes with no distinction between conventional or synthetic oils.

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Satterfi
I know this is off topic, but are you still using Mobil 1 15W50 now that it has been reformulated to a SL rated oil?

 

[Patman]

Dragboat, Maxlife doesn't advertise the fact that it has moly, I found that out from here and also from an oil analysis I saw on Maxima.org on 10w40 Maxlife. Now I'm beginning to wonder if Valvoline MaxLife 10w30 has any moly in it at all. Hopefully Scott from Valvoline will email me back on Monday with the answer to that.

I wonder now if Castrol GTX High Mileage has moly, since their regular oils contain a small amount of it, maybe this new oil contains more? Although I did email Castrol and asked them what antiwear additive was in this oil and the girl said zinc, phophorus and calcium. Perhaps she left out the fact that it has moly? I wish we had technical reps from every oil company on here, so we could find out the real scoop when we need it, since the technical reps that email you back from their websites usually don't give out nearly enough info. They probably aren't even lubrication experts, just people that read from a list of 10 possible answers to every question that could possibly come their way. (and the harder questions just probably don't get answered!)

 

[dragboat]

Yes I had previously posted a topic along those lines of a oil representitive from the various companies to be here.

This place is still great because we have a few onboard that have taught me alot about this stuff just from reading their posts to others.They will remain nameless as I do not want them to need to buy a larger hat!

I gotta tell you though that it is beginning to look as if there is 3 Brand oils/styles that would cover all needs and if Pennzoil would hurry up and makes that new Synthetic will knock it right down to two oils. Oopps,Did I just plug Pennzoil?

Just kidding,there are many good oils out there.Just been difficult to find the right one for one particular car we own

 

[ajax]

R.P. has moly in it.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

looks like Castrol GTX has about 60-70 ppm of moly in it. Last few samples of Mobil 1 SuperSyn I've seen had moly detected in it in the order of 80ppm or so.

 

[Patman]

We also know now that Pennzoil has moly too. The 15w40 Long Life showed a healthy 153ppm on a recent virgin analysis on here. Although that was the SJ formulation.

If anyone has some of those $8 analysis kits, could you send in a virgin sample of Pennzoil SL 10w30 and SL 15w40 for us to see exactly what the numbers show?

 

[dragboat]

Patman, a recent anaylisis of the SL 10/30 showed 49 PPM after 2600 miles. I would only hazard a guess 30-40 ppm at most was uptaken if that much

 

[MolaKule]

"Re Mobils reply to Patman re Moly settling in the oil pan and causing excessive oxidation. I remember one of you saying Redline has lots of moly, and either oxidation or nitration problem(****ed if I can find that post). Is Mobils response correct?"

In addition to Molybedenum Dithiocarbamate being an AW additive, it is also an anti-oxidant
and anti-corrosion additive. So Mobil's data is outdated and must be speaking to Moly when it was in suspension, not solution. A suspended moly is Moly-Slip. A Moly in solution is Schaeffer's #132. In my view, the #132 is better.

 

[MolaKule]

"It is thick like STP oil treatment, So I would never advise anyone to use it in every oil drain as I have tried it and found if you do that, it will produce a much heavier oil from excessive residual and cause the oil flow properties not to flow as designed until it warms up. That is the downside."

The #132 is thick because of the surfactant/wetting agent. It does not contain the same ingredients as the old formula STP, which is polyisobutene, a thickener and tackifier.

My experience to date is that if you have an oil with little or no moly, addition of #132 at a treat rate of 1.0 oz/qt. sump capacity is ok. I.E., if you have a 4 qt. sump, use 4 oz.

My used oil analysis has shown that with this treat rate, your viscosity will not rise more than 0.25 points.


In addition, if you are worried about residuals, a good engine cleaner such as Neutra
or Auto-Rx will clean out any residual.

 

[Sciguyjim]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:
Lets look at this response and maybe you'll understand my amusement.

quote:

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All Mobil 1 motor oils do contain small amounts of moly and you are right moly is an excellent anti-wear additive

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Really now...

Ok, take note about SMALL amount used.. now the next statement..

quote:

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problem is that too much moly in a motor oil causes the moly to settle to the bottom of the engine or the crankcase and it can
cause excessive oil oxidation

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Hmmmm, So are you saying that a small amount of moly wont settle down to the bottom? How is it that if moly seperates from the base oil, what does it do to make the oil oxidize? Is it reactive chemically?

quote:

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Mobil 1 fortunately has its own proprietary blend of synthetic anti-wear package that offers much better wear protection without any of the adverse effects that moly , phosphorous, and zinc can attribute to a motor oil.

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Oh really?

Now why use a little and not any since you already have such a high end proprietary antiwear package the out perfoms moly??? hmmmm

Sprintman, I cannot talk for redline as I have limited knowledge to their product but I suspect that this is not true with them and I also looked at maxlife for this as well and saw no evidence of moly seperating to the bottom either.

As for Schaeffers, there is no seperation and this is one of many standard answers from other companies that wont' or don't use moly as they have to come up with excuse to make a weak spot out of the stong points of other lubricants.

This exuse has been the standard response from a long time ago when it was true that moly would seperate and at that time was more in a solid form and not like today where it is now a suspended additive.

They really need to update their standarized response sheets.

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I'll try to include a pic here of the structure of a soluble (not suspended) moly additive. If this was in the oil, it would not look black like suspended MoS2. It appears, from what I've read so far, to be able to break down into MoS2 and plate the metal, but only as much as needed for the thin films formed. Therefore it may not even look black after it has plated MoS2 on the surfaces. It would not settle out of solution either because it is truely soluble

This was taken from an RTVanderbilt site.

[ October 19, 2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Sciguyjim]

Well, niether the link or the pic showed up. If you do a search for "molybdenum dithiocarbamate" (spell it right) you should see some of the many Vanderbilt pages. Some have these molecular structures on them.

 

[Sciguyjim]

[ October 19, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[dragboat]

Sciguyjim,

Do you have any information on the effects of using a oil blended with Moly Disulphate for long periods?

 

[Sciguyjim]

quote:

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Originally posted by dragboat:
Sciguyjim,

Do you have any information on the effects of using a oil blended with Moly Disulphate for long periods?

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Nope, sorry. It's supposed to be quite safe. One thing I read about moly, which I haven't seen here or anywhere else, is that if the MoS2 breaks down, say from combustion temps, the moly can oxidize, and the oxide is very abrasive. The only good thing about having a "little" moly oxidize is that it may be formed as pieces too small to harm anything. This would happen, for example, if some vapors from the soluble, organometallic MoDTC, got burnt in the cylinder. I wonder about oxide buildup on the MoS2 coated walls of the cylinders though. Anybody have another opinion about this????

 

[MolaKule]

SciGuyJim,

Reference in the literature reagrding Moly compunds in lubricants:

1. Wei, et. al., "An investigation of Effects of Some Motor oil Additives on the Friction and Wear Behavior of Oil-Soluble Organomolybedenum Compounds," Ed. Wilfred J. Bartz. in "Engine Oils and Automotive Lubrication." Marcel Dekker. At the end of this paper you'll find many other references on the subject as well.
2. Yamamoto, et. al., "Organoamine and Organophosphate Molybdenum Complexes as Lubricant Additives," Wear, 1987, (12)51-60.
3. Yamamoto, et. al., "Frictional Characteristics of Molybdenum Dithiophosphate, Wear, 1986, (112)79-57.

4. "Synthetic Oils and Lubricant Additives: advances since 1979," Chemical Technology Review, Ed. M.J. Satriana, Noyes Data Company. In this book you'll find the seven patent disclosures by Exxon, Esso, Mobil, and Lubrizol.

Great reading for those interested in these types of FM and AW additives.