Oil's Effects on Direct Inj Intake Valve Deposits?
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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I think I would use water injection into the intake manifold if I owned one of these GDI smogger engine cars. Maybe use the system to inject some PEA or other substance to keep the valves clean.
I'd try something because I tend to keep a daily driver for a long time. For most people, they should just ignore the problem and trade up before the factory warranty runs out. Keeping a car beyond the warranty can sometimes be an unreasonable risk.
Sure, you can dissolve PEA in IPA, or any alcohol, and spray onto intake tube and the valves will get PEA directly.
I think I would use water injection into the intake manifold if I owned one of these GDI smogger engine cars. Maybe use the system to inject some PEA or other substance to keep the valves clean.
I'd try something because I tend to keep a daily driver for a long time. For most people, they should just ignore the problem and trade up before the factory warranty runs out. Keeping a car beyond the warranty can sometimes be an unreasonable risk.
Sure, you can dissolve PEA in IPA, or any alcohol, and spray onto intake tube and the valves will get PEA directly.
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Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I think I would use water injection into the intake manifold if I owned one of these GDI smogger engine cars. Maybe use the system to inject some PEA or other substance to keep the valves clean.
I'd try something because I tend to keep a daily driver for a long time. For most people, they should just ignore the problem and trade up before the factory warranty runs out. Keeping a car beyond the warranty can sometimes be an unreasonable risk.
Sure, you can dissolve PEA in IPA, or any alcohol, and spray onto intake tube and the valves will get PEA directly.
Some will and some won't.
Modern injected engines all have a 'dry' manifold design. It is designed only for air, and if moisture is introduced it may puddle and be very unevenly delivered. Vaporized would be ok if the intake was hot enough, but many engines with larger displacements have manifolds with larger passages and cooler temps.
Introducing any liquid into a modern intake can cause a real problem...
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I think I would use water injection into the intake manifold if I owned one of these GDI smogger engine cars. Maybe use the system to inject some PEA or other substance to keep the valves clean.
I'd try something because I tend to keep a daily driver for a long time. For most people, they should just ignore the problem and trade up before the factory warranty runs out. Keeping a car beyond the warranty can sometimes be an unreasonable risk.
Sure, you can dissolve PEA in IPA, or any alcohol, and spray onto intake tube and the valves will get PEA directly.
Some will and some won't.
Modern injected engines all have a 'dry' manifold design. It is designed only for air, and if moisture is introduced it may puddle and be very unevenly delivered. Vaporized would be ok if the intake was hot enough, but many engines with larger displacements have manifolds with larger passages and cooler temps.
Introducing any liquid into a modern intake can cause a real problem...
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
This looks like something that might be a better choice than seafoam.
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
This looks like something that might be a better choice than seafoam.
Originally Posted By: ccap41
What are you guys' opinions on this stuff then..
http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
Nobody has tested it I have found but CRC is a reputable company. Won't hurt anything to try it.
What are you guys' opinions on this stuff then..
http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
Nobody has tested it I have found but CRC is a reputable company. Won't hurt anything to try it.
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
http://www.underhoodservice.com/direct-injection-engines-develop-carbon-deposits/
"...If you look up direct injection carbon deposit problems on the Internet, engines from BMW, Audi and VW always rank the highest. Engines from GM and Ford that have been on the road for at least four years hardly have a carbon deposit complaint. What’s the deal?
Some direct injection engines have bad timing. The modern engine typically has variable valve timing and even cylinder deactivation. The engine management system can control when, how long and, in some cases, how deep the valve goes into the combustion chamber. If an intake valve is dropping into a combustion chamber with combustion byproducts or unburned fuel, the valve might be exposed to the precursors that cause carbon build-up.
Some have blamed the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems for leaving an oily film on the intake valve that is then baked into carbon. Some blame the valve overlap during the intake stroke that eliminates the need for an EGR valve.
The Fix
There are several fixes available to solve carbon build-up problems.
The first is preventive maintenance. Scheduled oil changes can keep the camshaft actuators working in optimal condition to control the exposure of the intake valves. Spark plug replacement can reduce the amount of unburned fuel in the combustion chamber that can stick to a valve. Fuel injector cleaning can help injectors maintain the correct spray geometry.
But the number one method for preventing a carbon build-up problem is updating the engine management software. New software can reduce carbon deposits by reducing the exposure of the valves to conditions that cause carbon build-up by adjusting valve and spark timing.
Don’t assume that you will find a TSB saying that a reflash of the ECM will correct a carbon build-up problem because most of the updates will be contained in normal housekeeping that may never say anything about a problem. You may even have to check the OEM’s website to see if the vehicle has the latest version of the software..."
"...If you look up direct injection carbon deposit problems on the Internet, engines from BMW, Audi and VW always rank the highest. Engines from GM and Ford that have been on the road for at least four years hardly have a carbon deposit complaint. What’s the deal?
Some direct injection engines have bad timing. The modern engine typically has variable valve timing and even cylinder deactivation. The engine management system can control when, how long and, in some cases, how deep the valve goes into the combustion chamber. If an intake valve is dropping into a combustion chamber with combustion byproducts or unburned fuel, the valve might be exposed to the precursors that cause carbon build-up.
Some have blamed the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems for leaving an oily film on the intake valve that is then baked into carbon. Some blame the valve overlap during the intake stroke that eliminates the need for an EGR valve.
The Fix
There are several fixes available to solve carbon build-up problems.
The first is preventive maintenance. Scheduled oil changes can keep the camshaft actuators working in optimal condition to control the exposure of the intake valves. Spark plug replacement can reduce the amount of unburned fuel in the combustion chamber that can stick to a valve. Fuel injector cleaning can help injectors maintain the correct spray geometry.
But the number one method for preventing a carbon build-up problem is updating the engine management software. New software can reduce carbon deposits by reducing the exposure of the valves to conditions that cause carbon build-up by adjusting valve and spark timing.
Don’t assume that you will find a TSB saying that a reflash of the ECM will correct a carbon build-up problem because most of the updates will be contained in normal housekeeping that may never say anything about a problem. You may even have to check the OEM’s website to see if the vehicle has the latest version of the software..."
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
I don't get why everyone thinks catch cans don't work. If you have ever seen the contents of a properly made catch can (baffles/screens/filters) you would be amazed at the contents of just a few thousand miles on some cars. Otherwise this vapor would all be collecting in the intake manifold and valves.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
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Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
You are correct. Which is why I was hesitant to use anything in the first place. But, the CRC specifically says it is safe for turbo engines. I know that doesn't magiaclly make it okay but it made me feel better and, let's be honest, if the turbo went out from that it would have gone out in the next few thousand miles, right? It would have still been covered under warranty and I have no clue how it could have been proved that I used something like this anway.
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
You are correct. Which is why I was hesitant to use anything in the first place. But, the CRC specifically says it is safe for turbo engines. I know that doesn't magiaclly make it okay but it made me feel better and, let's be honest, if the turbo went out from that it would have gone out in the next few thousand miles, right? It would have still been covered under warranty and I have no clue how it could have been proved that I used something like this anway.
Originally Posted By: afree
I don't get why everyone thinks catch cans don't work. If you have ever seen the contents of a properly made catch can (baffles/screens/filters) you would be amazed at the contents of just a few thousand miles on some cars. Otherwise this vapor would all be collecting in the intake manifold and valves.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
Because there were several on the Mini/BMW forums that showed before and after pics and still got intake valve deposits at the same rate as before the catch can install.
No doubt that catch cans catch stuff. But is that the stuff creating deposits or is that stuff just flowing into the chamber and getting burned off w/out a catch can? No real evidence yet showing catch cans can reduce intake valve deposits.
I don't get why everyone thinks catch cans don't work. If you have ever seen the contents of a properly made catch can (baffles/screens/filters) you would be amazed at the contents of just a few thousand miles on some cars. Otherwise this vapor would all be collecting in the intake manifold and valves.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
Because there were several on the Mini/BMW forums that showed before and after pics and still got intake valve deposits at the same rate as before the catch can install.
No doubt that catch cans catch stuff. But is that the stuff creating deposits or is that stuff just flowing into the chamber and getting burned off w/out a catch can? No real evidence yet showing catch cans can reduce intake valve deposits.
I
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: afree
I don't get why everyone thinks catch cans don't work. If you have ever seen the contents of a properly made catch can (baffles/screens/filters) you would be amazed at the contents of just a few thousand miles on some cars. Otherwise this vapor would all be collecting in the intake manifold and valves.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
Because there were several on the Mini/BMW forums that showed before and after pics and still got intake valve deposits at the same rate as before the catch can install.
No doubt that catch cans catch stuff. But is that the stuff creating deposits or is that stuff just flowing into the chamber and getting burned off w/out a catch can? No real evidence yet showing catch cans can reduce intake valve deposits.
Right. Plus, most manufacturers have oil/vapor separators as part of the PCV system on DI engines, which is a professionally engineered solution for a specific engine. And, as the captured liquids drain back to the sump, no manual emptying is needed.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: afree
I don't get why everyone thinks catch cans don't work. If you have ever seen the contents of a properly made catch can (baffles/screens/filters) you would be amazed at the contents of just a few thousand miles on some cars. Otherwise this vapor would all be collecting in the intake manifold and valves.
I believe the reason manufacturers and engineers don't add them to cars is because of either emissions or the fact that it adds another maintenance item. If you neglect to check the can you could risk sucking up that condensed fuel/oil/water liquid mixture which would be far worse than burning the vapor directly.
Because there were several on the Mini/BMW forums that showed before and after pics and still got intake valve deposits at the same rate as before the catch can install.
No doubt that catch cans catch stuff. But is that the stuff creating deposits or is that stuff just flowing into the chamber and getting burned off w/out a catch can? No real evidence yet showing catch cans can reduce intake valve deposits.
Right. Plus, most manufacturers have oil/vapor separators as part of the PCV system on DI engines, which is a professionally engineered solution for a specific engine. And, as the captured liquids drain back to the sump, no manual emptying is needed.
Alfa romeo has had oil/vapor separators with drainback on all engines at least since 1992, petrol or diesel IDI or DI, Turbo or NA
The teost test is supposed to be a measure of potential deposits isn't it?
yes, not inside an intake manifold but on a piston skirt.
But it doesn't differentiate between the kind of deposits (moly deposits a lot in the test which would be as intended for moly) limiting the useof the test, IMO.
But it doesn't differentiate between the kind of deposits (moly deposits a lot in the test which would be as intended for moly) limiting the useof the test, IMO.
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
^^this ^^
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1316029-new-warning-to-all-ford-ecoboost-owners.html
Also, this:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/135666...ed-to-know.html
Just to be aware that a GTDI engine is a slightly different animal than a G(na)DI engine.
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Anyone try this?-http://crcindustries.com/auto/intake-valve-cleaner.php
I tried it. There was also a $5 mail-in rebate.
With "only" 43,000 miles on my Escpae when I used it I didn't notice any difference but I consider that kind of a good thing otherwise it was probably really dirty in there prior to my servicing. I was using it as prevenative maintenance and will pobably do so every other oil change so ~10,000 miles.
Fwiw, I believe Ford specifically advises against this method for cleaning intake valves on GDI turbo engines. The reason given is particles dislodged during the cleaning process can damage the turbocharger itself, which is an expensive component to mess with.
Ford's repair method is to remove the cylinder head, clean the valves and replace. If there were a cheaper but safe alternative Ford would use it to lower warranty costs.
^^this ^^
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1316029-new-warning-to-all-ford-ecoboost-owners.html
Also, this:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/135666...ed-to-know.html
Just to be aware that a GTDI engine is a slightly different animal than a G(na)DI engine.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
I don't know if it will make a difference or not. My plan is using a decent blend oil for 5k OCI's which are all highway. Using Top Tier fuel, and a sea-foam treatment once a year. Plus changing the PCV valve every 50k.
Some say "getting on it" once a day will help. Which she does getting on the freeway.
We're going to keep this thing for 200k, so we'll see how it goes. I'll check back in about 5-6 years at the 200k mark. lol.
That's about what I do.
What do you do with Seafoam? Gas tank? Oil?
Seafoam has been tested already. It cannot touch the hard deposits left on intake valves of DI engines. It can only remove soft, gummy buildup. Don't waste the time.
One of the local Mazda dealers offers BG's DI service. Any word on how that works?
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
I don't know if it will make a difference or not. My plan is using a decent blend oil for 5k OCI's which are all highway. Using Top Tier fuel, and a sea-foam treatment once a year. Plus changing the PCV valve every 50k.
Some say "getting on it" once a day will help. Which she does getting on the freeway.
We're going to keep this thing for 200k, so we'll see how it goes. I'll check back in about 5-6 years at the 200k mark. lol.
That's about what I do.
What do you do with Seafoam? Gas tank? Oil?
Seafoam has been tested already. It cannot touch the hard deposits left on intake valves of DI engines. It can only remove soft, gummy buildup. Don't waste the time.
One of the local Mazda dealers offers BG's DI service. Any word on how that works?
Originally Posted By: ccap41
You are correct. Which is why I was hesitant to use anything in the first place. But, the CRC specifically says it is safe for turbo engines. I know that doesn't magiaclly make it okay but it made me feel better and, let's be honest, if the turbo went out from that it would have gone out in the next few thousand miles, right? It would have still been covered under warranty and I have no clue how it could have been proved that I used something like this anway.
Maybe a good solution: Dampen 3/4 of your paper-element air filter in CRC or Gumout MultiSystem or B-12 Chemtool or Gumout All-In-One (most of those have PEA in it or wicked solvents at least). Then drive normally, letting air flow gradually vaporize the chemicals to mix with air and wash over the intake valves as you drive.
You are correct. Which is why I was hesitant to use anything in the first place. But, the CRC specifically says it is safe for turbo engines. I know that doesn't magiaclly make it okay but it made me feel better and, let's be honest, if the turbo went out from that it would have gone out in the next few thousand miles, right? It would have still been covered under warranty and I have no clue how it could have been proved that I used something like this anway.
Maybe a good solution: Dampen 3/4 of your paper-element air filter in CRC or Gumout MultiSystem or B-12 Chemtool or Gumout All-In-One (most of those have PEA in it or wicked solvents at least). Then drive normally, letting air flow gradually vaporize the chemicals to mix with air and wash over the intake valves as you drive.
Great discussions above. Gradually treating the valves with solvents should erode deposits over time without breaking off big chunks one would hope.
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