Ideas about cleaning intake valve deposits

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This may sound a bit "off the wall" but I am always interested in DI engines as I have two, one a diesel and one a gasoline engine. My question is directed toward the latter.

It seems well established that DI engines suffer from deposits on the intake valves because no fuel with cleaning additives passes over them like it does in port injection engines. Some get really crudded up. So here is the question.

Is it feasible to add something volatile that is a valve cleaning compound to the engine oil so that every time one changes the oil, this volatile material would slowly be driven off by heat and flow down through the intake from the PCV system for perhaps the first 10-20 hours after the oil change . This would at least provide some cleaning of the intake valves and be an in situ substitute for the spray cleaners that are touted for DI engines. One might even have something in the oil that breaks down chemically under the heat of running the engine to release such a material. If you are an organic chemist, think a reverse Diels Alder reaction, for example.

Thoughts on this, please.
 
I think the risk of what you're proposing here would be ruining the lubricity of the oil


The best fix for this is one of prevention. Consider where the deposits comes from - EGR and PCV systems. Carbon like this doesn't show up from atmospheric air.

Mechanically speaking, the most appropriate solution to this would be to delete/tune out EGR, and install a quality catch can in the PCV system.

If legislation in your area doesn't allow this, then your best bet would be cleaning via a solvent through your intake at regular intervals. CRC has products specifically marketed to this that work well. Barring even that, then periodic removal of the intake and mechanical removal is your final option.



Purely theoretical bit here as I'm not sure what effect some of the cleaning products will have on an extended oil change interval:

You could rig up a system to inject cleaner into your intake at regular intervals during your drive cycle. Think similar to some of the methanol injection kits
 
Nope. It'll get burned up during the combustion process. The amount of buildup on the back sides of the intake very much depends on the engine and the PCV design. Some designs are better at taking oil out of the air stream than others. For example the BMW N55 doesn't really develop significant buildup until some time after 100k miles whereas the early N54 design required a walnut blast every 40-60k miles.

I've seen some people will retrofit methanol/water injection system into the intake tract which will end up keeping the back side of the valves clean. Bosch has come up with an injection system for the OEM's and it was first implemented in the BMW GTS.
 
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It will help if you told us your gas engine. Studies have shown PEA will clean carbon from intake valves in DI gasoline engines. Also some engines do not have the intake carbon issue.
 
I thought of using PEA based fuel system cleaner in a reverse oiler setup similar to the old ones used with MMO before and wasn't sure if it would work.
 
I own a 2013 VW GTI with a 2.0 gasoline direct injected turbo engine. The intake manifold secondaries gave out around 82Kish miles.

I made a post about it a few years ago. The car didn't run any better or worse with dirty valves vs clean valves. That could have changed however if the intake manifold didn't go out.

Removing the intake manifold and cleaning the intake valves is very easy on VW's. Most are making a mountain out of a molehill. And the ones that
seem to complain about direct injection are the same ones that are mechanically competent. I imagine cleaning the intake valves on a FWD V6 might be a pain however.

The AllTrack is an awesome vehicle BTW!
 
Originally Posted by dave1251
It will help if you told us your gas engine. Studies have shown PEA will clean carbon from intake valves in DI gasoline engines. Also some engines do not have the intake carbon issue.


It's that an issue of programming where the intake valves are programmed to remain open just long enough so some fuel injected into the combustion chamber can flow over them?
 
I don't have a dog in this fight. The idea that DI gasses the oil strikes me as wasteful. Gunky valves? How do these affect engine performance? How long will a DI engine last if left alone?
 
Do the back of valves get hot enough to make deposits on them incandescent? If so, water should work.

Alternatively, I was at a trade show in Taiwan where a water electrolysis rig was touted as a fix. Dunno if it worked but hydrogen, unlike any other fuels I can think of except maybe powdered aluminium, has no carbon in it so might be quite effective at burning it off,
 
According to Mazda if the valves are kept hot enough it's a non-issue. It's only the cooler operating valves that seem to have issues. They don't have any DI valve build up issues that I'm aware of so they might know better. Ford also seems to have really good control on their engines.
 
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Originally Posted by dave1251
It will help if you told us your gas engine. Studies have shown PEA will clean carbon from intake valves in DI gasoline engines. Also some engines do not have the intake carbon issue.

Which studies?
 
Originally Posted by andyd
I don't have a dog in this fight. The idea that DI gasses the oil strikes me as wasteful. Gunky valves? How do these affect engine performance? How long will a DI engine last if left alone?


Depends on the engine family. Early DI designs had problems but we're talking 8-11 yr old engine designs. Today, overall, I'd say it's not an issue because it has been addressed via PCV design, the addition of a port injector or valve lift. Aftermarket solutions include water/meth injection and/or catch can for some of the older designs.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by dave1251
It will help if you told us your gas engine. Studies have shown PEA will clean carbon from intake valves in DI gasoline engines. Also some engines do not have the intake carbon issue.


It's that an issue of programming where the intake valves are programmed to remain open just long enough so some fuel injected into the combustion chamber can flow over them?



As for the engines which do not have the carbon intake issue? Yes the design helps with prevention of carbon buildup. As for PEA some of it will survive the combustion process and provide cleaning.
 
I wondered if you could use solvent like b-12 ,in a catch can set up to pull the vapor across the intake valves.
 
Originally Posted by spasm3
I wondered if you could use solvent like b-12 ,in a catch can set up to pull the vapor across the intake valves.



I'd look at water injection first if that's the route you want to take. Distilled water is cheaper and meth kits are readily available.
 
Some of the newest DI engines use a hybrid DI and port injection design to clean the intake valves.

Also some engines like the Mercedes M276 doesn't seem to suffer from DI intake valve deposits. I haven't seen a single thread about it even though it is DFI. A 3.5L V6 making 306hp.

Some interesting info:

Quote
Okay here we go...... !!!!!!!!!!!!

I did a little poking around and found this... and it looks good... maybe! The new DI engines are designated M276 and M278, (V6 - V8). Both utilize the same head design although the V8 is turbocharged. But for our discussion, we are more interested in the set up of the injectors, which are piezo-electric direct petrol injection and the location of the intake valves relative to the injector. The new engine has a reduced V-angle between the cylinder banks, 60 now vs. 90, making the engine naturally balanced, enabling the designers to eliminate the friction hogging balancer shaft. The fuel efficiency numbers are truly astonishing for this engine, more than 24% more economical than the previous engine!

Let's look at the pix...

M276 V6

^ See where they placed the direct injected fuel injector?.... TDC! Now look at this picture...


M278 V8 but same head design.

^ You can better see in this picture that because of where the piezo electric injector is located, (not to the side but above the intake valves) Kevibk2 may have hit the nail on the head! The intake valves (the larger ones) are perfectly located to take full advantage of the injectors spray pattern cleansing properties.

__________________________________________________ ___________

The following is taken from Autoholics:

"In contrast to the V8, the new V6 engine is naturally aspirated, and has the potential for future use of a turbocharger thanks to the modular design concept.

A completely new intake and exhaust gas system with a variable-resonance intake manifold and optimised airflows was also developed for the new V6. This enabled the output of the 3499 cc engine to be increased to 225 kW (306 hp) (Previous engine of the same displacement in the S-Class: 200 kW/272 hp). Torque has increased from 350 Nm to 370 Nm, and is available between 3500 and 5250 rpm.

Key figures for the new V6 engine

No. of cylinders
V6
Displacement (cc)
3499
Bore (mm)
92.9
Stroke (mm)
86
Compression ratio:
12.2:1
Output (kW at rpm)
225 at 6500
Torque (Nm at rpm)
370 from 3500-5250

Both the new V6 and the new V8 from Mercedes-Benz have aluminium crankcases, pistons and cylinder heads. The crankshaft, connecting rods and valves are of special forged steel.

Mercedes-Benz has achieved this considerable leap in efficiency with the use of innovative technology - including newly developed, third-generation direct petrol injection with spray-guided combustion, multiple injection and multi-spark ignition. With this new generation of V-engines, Mercedes-Benz is clearly demonstrating that with concerted further development, internal combustion engines still have a great deal of potential, and that V6 and V8 engines with their great running refinement are fit for the future.

The technology package in the new engine generation includes a number of new developments that are unique in this combination:

• In combination with multi-spark ignition, a further developed, third generation direct fuel injection system with spray-guided combustion and piezo-electric injectors offers further possibilities for fuel savings - in the V8 by means of an improved, homogeneous combustion process, and in the V6 by a new, stratified combustion process with a considerably extended characteristic map and fuel-efficient lean-burn technology.

• In conjunction with start/stop technology, shift point adjustment and specific friction-reducing measures, improvements in day-to-day fuel consumption by more than 20 percent are possible.

• Power consumption by ancillary units has been reduced. These include an optimised water pump with second generation thermal management, a demand-controlled oil pump, a volume-controlled high-pressure fuel pump and an intelligent generator management system.

Lightweight construction techniques and detailed improvements have also reduced in-engine friction considerably compared to the previous engine.

Third generation direct petrol injection

Direct petrol injection with spray-guided combustion, which Mercedes-Benz was the first car manufacturer to introduce in series production, has been developed further as a third generation. The system pressure is up to 200 bar, the pressure being variably optimised according to the engine's characteristic map. Completely newly developed piezo-electric injectors allow up to five injections per intake stroke for the best possible mixture formation.

The crystalline structure of the piezo-ceramic changes in microseconds under an electric voltage, and with a precision of just a few thousandths of a millimetre. The central component of a piezo-electric injector is the piezo-stack, which directly controls the metering needle. With a response time of just 0.1 milli-seconds, the fuel injection can be very sensitively and precisely adjusted to the current load and engine speed, with a beneficial effect on emissions, fuel consumption and combustion noise.

The multiple injections even in tiny quantities made possible with piezo-electric injection technology were used by Mercedes-Benz engineers to control a wider characteristic map with the efficient lean-burn process, and to provide the conditions for further functions:

• As the first new operating mode, Mercedes-Benz engineers have developed "Homogeneous stratified combustion" (HOS). As the name implies, HOS is a combination of homogeneous lean-burn and classic stratified combustion. The first injection is sprayed into the intake stroke, forming a homogeneous basic mixture. Actual "stratified" injection takes place during the compression stroke before ignition, and is a single or double injection depending on the characteristic map.

(Please Note: This may be the answer I've been looking for! HOS can be programmed to spray multiple times during the power stroke, and at any rpm! (Amazing but so does my GT-R) This means that Mercedes engineers quite possibly took advantage of this technology to spray off the intake valves during those milliseconds! See next point below.)

• Another new operating mode is known as "Homogeneous Split" (HSP). In this homogeneous combustion process, more than 95 percent of the fuel is singly or multiply injected, followed a very small "ignition" injection to stabilise combustion. This is used when combustion conditions are difficult.

The characteristic map of the new Mercedes-Benz V6 engine is therefore basically divided into up to four areas:

− idling range (homogeneous)
− low partial load up to 4 bar and 3800 rpm (stratified)
− medium partial load 4 to 8 bar and up to 4000 rpm (HOS)
− high load and entire engine speed range (homogeneous or HSP)
__________________________________________________ _____________________

Well there you have it! This is the best possible proof I can find to date that the boys over in the new sub-plant of the Untertürkheim engine werks, lies the new V-engine factory at Bad Cannstatt, knew what they were doing!


M276 V6

^ This picture doesn't help our discussion at all but I thought is was very cool so I included it.
 
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Some engines also place the direct injector so it can spray some fuel over the valve when it's open from within the combustion chamber and then spray the rest later on for the combustion cycle. I forget which engines these are, but did read about it.
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC
Some engines also place the direct injector so it can spray some fuel over the valve when it's open from within the combustion chamber and then spray the rest later on for the combustion cycle. I forget which engines these are, but did read about it.

Ford is doing it on their vehicles, though I believe this was due to the cooling effect of the fuel and not for the sake of carbon wash
 
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