Oil's Effects on Direct Inj Intake Valve Deposits?

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lubricatosaurus

Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Messages
1,288
Location
Colorado
Anybody know about how oil can affect intake valve deposits on DI engines?

Illustration:
2007-04-05_121539_pcv.gif


Crankcase has H2O, C02, C0, N2, NOx, O2, fuel, OIL, etc. in it. This gets routed around to the intake manifold. FWIW, Ecoboost intake valve deposits were blamed on placement of PCV entry to intake manifold (mixing).

Is there anything motor oil can do, or which oils might foul intake valves more or less?
I'd guess synthetics might help here, yet additive chemistry may play a role in intake valve deposits too.
 
There's lots of threads on this-mainly around the engines that got all coked up.

The type of oil plays a role and people who were with the afflicted engines were looking for the best NOACK oils; but the bigger player depends is just the engineering of the exact DI system.
 
Low SAPS is supposed to help. Also oils that provide better ring sealing to reduce blow-by.
 
The answer is, of course, nobody really knows. But consider:

Companies that produce lots of DI engines ( Ford, Honda, Hyundai) have oil specs that allow conventional oils or syn blends. So maybe Noack isn't so important.

Looking at boards for modern DI vehicles shows very little in terms of intake valve deposits. A little noise around Ford EcoBoost V6s, but not much else.

So, while there are lots of theories out there, DI may just not be much of an issue in the real world. The whole intake deposit issue may go back to early (German) adopters and the world and technology may have moved on.
 
Originally Posted By: harrydog
Low SAPS is supposed to help. Also oils that provide better ring sealing to reduce blow-by.

Hard to pick LowSAPS oils! All the popular LL-01 or dexos1 oils are high saps for our fuels here in North America. Maybe installing a good catch can. Found some internet advice on that. I forgot to mention this question comes from harrydog's question on another thread.
There may be nothing we can do about sticky deposits on intake valves in DI engines. Yet, some engines don't seem to get them.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
Looking at boards for modern DI vehicles shows very little in terms of intake valve deposits. A little noise around Ford EcoBoost V6s, but not much else.

So, while there are lots of theories out there, DI may just not be much of an issue in the real world. The whole intake deposit issue may go back to early (German) adopters and the world and technology may have moved on.


I don't know what to make of it. The picture below is from a GM 3.6L LLT v6 thread:
WOUGS9v.jpg


Warns about not having a catch can. You'd think engineers would already do this.
 
There is tons of (mis)information out there, mostly posted by people who are making wild guesses and don't actually have significant evidence to back any of it up.

And there is no evidence that catch cans do anything other suck money out of your wallet. Until proven otherwise by a significant percentage of these engines having issues, I'm going to trust the manufacturers who test these engines extensively over some guy with a CNC machine in his garage who will try and convince you that catch cans are a must.
 
you've posted as evidence a picture with a timestamp of 2012 on it. So what year was that engine? a 2009 or 2010?

That's still "early/mid adopter" territory in DI technology; and so "moving on" has moved on.

Summary: New DI engines probably fine now. Don't buy a used car without learning and checking if it has issues, whether it's carbon deposits or sludge issues or whatever.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Danh

Companies that produce lots of DI engines ( Ford, Honda, Hyundai) have oil specs that allow conventional oils or syn blends. So maybe Noack isn't so important.

Honda specifies 0w-20. Are there any conventional 0w-20 oils?

Originally Posted By: Danh
at boards for modern DI vehicles shows very little in terms of intake valve deposits. A little noise around Ford EcoBoost V6s, but not much else.

So, while there are lots of theories out there, DI may just not be much of an issue in the real world. The whole intake deposit issue may go back to early (German) adopters and the world and technology may have moved on.

The VW/Audi DI turbo engine still has the problem, or at least up until the latest version. Jury is still out on that one.
 
We can each adopt one of the many theories presented as a way to band-aid any IVD issue, if one exists. No one would be right or wrong.

Lot's of theories out there...

*Using Top Tier fuel and sticking with OEM oil recomendations
*Using GrpIV oils only
*Using low SAPs or Mid SAPs
*Using low TEOST GrpIII
*Using low Noack GrpIII at OEM recommended oci
*Using low Noack GrpIII at no more than 5k ml oci
*Using GrpII at no more than 5k ml oci
*Using oils containing the least amount of calcium additives (T-GDI)
*Use of Catch-Cans


http://papers.sae.org/2014-32-0092/

http://gf-6.com/sites/default/files/Turb...ig Hurdle.pdf

http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/overseas/conference/pdf/conference12-19.pdf

2015 article:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/...n-engines-.html


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3792192/1
 
I've wondered if short run driving where the engine does not get warmed up might be more of a problem with a DI engine.

A neighbor that is very OCD about his cars has rigged up a water injection system on his daughter's DI car. She does a lot of miles of short stop and go driving as a case worker for old folks care.
 
Originally Posted By: raytseng
you've posted as evidence a picture with a timestamp of 2012 on it. So what year was that engine? a 2009 or 2010?

That's still "early/mid adopter" territory in DI technology; and so "moving on" has moved on.

Summary: New DI engines probably fine now. Don't buy a used car without learning and checking if it has issues, whether it's carbon deposits or sludge issues or whatever.


Many of us have ancient vehicles, like 4 or 5 years old. Hard to imagine, I know.
(That picture was from a thread that mentioned the 2013 year GM change to PCV fittings on 3.6L LFX V6s with much larger holes for more flow.)

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
There are no conventional or blend (AFAIK) 0w-20 oils, all are at least group III
No, there are several 0w-20 dexos1 Blends out there, several on the dexos1 approved list.
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
If the oil also had PEA, instead of just PIB as dispersant, would help, no?
You might be on to something. Gumout MultiSystem can be added to the sump oil at 1 oz per quart of oil. It has PEA in it, and that PEA should vaporize in hot driving to get sent thru the PCV system. Maybe enough to make a difference! I may have to run Gumout in there for the last thousand miles before an oil change. Great thought.
 
Outside of the companies that make catch cans, nobody has any definitive proof they actually work. Tons of threads on GM boards especially regarding the DI 3.6. If you pay close attention though, the ones peddling the information are all one of about 4 usernames who all have ties to RevExtreme the makers of the RX catch can. I've seen it on several different boards.

Personally all DI motors will have deposits. Unavoidable. Most seem to have it figured out with a combination of valve timing and ECU programming along with intricate manifold scavenging setups. No catch can needed
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
There are no conventional or blend (AFAIK) 0w-20 oils, all are at least group III
No, there are several 0w-20 dexos1 Blends out there, several on the dexos1 approved list.


Figured there might be, so I saved myself with the AFAIK...;)
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: Pontual
If the oil also had PEA, instead of just PIB as dispersant, would help, no?
You might be on to something. Gumout MultiSystem can be added to the sump oil at 1 oz per quart of oil. It has PEA in it, and that PEA should vaporize in hot driving to get sent thru the PCV system. Maybe enough to make a difference! I may have to run Gumout in there for the last thousand miles before an oil change. Great thought.


Sure. I just use a squirt, about 5 grams or half a small tube of TETA epoxy hardener, for about 2 years now. No side effects that I noted off. That's many, many times than a few ounces of gummout, IMO. I run full OCI. I Didn't boroscoped the valves in a DI engine though, my cars are port injected. It will evaporate. I just put a cotton string around a lab tube and raise it up to and heated it on a stove, and the little rope got all gummed up with PEA by its fumes. But I can't recommend this TETA on sump, since is a way outside the box stuff... I'm considered a Radical for some conservative Bitoggers, anyway ... My test beds are fine with my experiments, somehow I didn't screw up yet.
But try Gummout and a few Italian Tuneups to see if it helps and report back. Please boroscope it and take pics if possible, too.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

qball16
Trying to decide on an oil for new Subaru Forester
2
Replies
37
Views
5K
odie
Boomer
  • Locked
Ideas about cleaning intake valve deposits
2
Replies
20
Views
8K
demarpaint
S
  • Locked
High Noack Oils and Dirty EGR Valves...
2 3 4
Replies
70
Views
25K
chrisri
john_pifer
  • Locked
Installed Mishimoto Dual Oil Catch Can System
2
Replies
22
Views
6K
john_pifer
A
Combating DI Intake Valve Deposits - Ford Focus ST
2 3
Replies
44
Views
35K
WylieCoyote
Back
Top