Oil's affect on motorcycle gear shift feel?

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Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
I guess my concern using car oil is a long term negative affect. I've never had an issue with a clutch slipping but that doesn't mean I won't have an issue Over repeated use with mileage.


I had a Honda CBR600, at 1000 km (600 mi) I dumped the FF oil and put in the only full synthetic oil I could get at the time (with reasonable effort) Castrol 10W-60. It was a car oil, called Formula R then, but now called Castrol Edge.

I ran nothing but Castrol Edge 10W-60 for the next 15 years. No problems with engine or clutch. Changed it every 10,000 KM or 12-18 months, depended a lot on how much I was riding. Some years I rode a lot, almost 1000 km per week, other years I hardly rode at all.

I had the bike for twenty years, I tried a few other oils in the last few years, but it spent most of it's life on car oil. All full synthetic.

I sold the bike earlier this year, it was 20 years old and in great condition, still on the original clutch with no slipping. If long term use of car oil in a bike with a wet clutch causes it to start slipping, then the problem must take more than two decades to show up. I think you will be OK.

BTW give some Castrol Edge 10W60 a go. I liked it.


If you checked you'd see there aren't high levels of friction modification in that castrol oil.
The old green German castrol was also low in friction modifiers as well,but high in anti-wear adds
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I see the oils you used seemed to shear down pretty quickly after less then 700 miles.


As long as the owner stays with in the manufactures oil change interval there is no logical reason to fear the shear...
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy



If you checked you'd see there aren't high levels of friction modification in that castrol oil.
The old green German castrol was also low in friction modifiers as well,but high in anti-wear adds


Hi Clevy, thanks for that, sounds like a perfect bike oil, low in FM and high in anti-wear adds. How did you know about the FM level? Not picking a fight, just curious, as I can't tell from the product data sheets or oil analysis.

Here is a VOA for the Castrol 10W-60
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988455

Originally Posted By: addyguy


I honestly think it is a fairly strong oil - 200ppm moly, Titanium and Boron, 2800ppm Ca detergent, TBN of 10+....what NOT to like???


I spoke to some Castrol techs over the phone a few years ago and they said it was group III & IV based. I've also hear it's a light 60 weight, that quickly becomes a 50 weight, then stays as a 50 weight for a long time. I had no trouble going 10,000 KM on it with good gear changes the whole way. Some other oils I tried, including some other Castrol Edge group III synthetics (5w30 A3/B4) sheared out in about 3000 KM.

A mate ran Mobil 1 5w50 in his Yamaha SRX600 for about 10 years, and loved it the whole way. Also no clutch problems.
 
Some interesting finds when researching use of car oils in a motorcycle.

1. Clutch makers do recommend motorcycle specific oil.
2. Motorcycle oil claims of increased viscosity retention were found to be false by an MCN test of PCMO oils vs. Honda, Spectro, and a few other motorcycle specific oils I don't recall.
3. Amongst people who race bikes, and surely this is anecdotal, there are mixed experiences. Enough mix that it appears to be of little consequence, negative or positive, on the use of bike specific oil vs car oil.

One guy in particular claims hundreds of sub 9 second quarter mile runs on m1 15w50 car oil with no clutch failures.

On the other hand, Brock from Brock's performance wrote that in 2007 he started seeing his drag racing clutches melting after having used m1 15w50 car oil for years in bikes having 500hp and based the failures on a change in m1's formulation, after which he started using and selling oil from Alisyn.

Seems this topic begins never ending debates.
 
The debate would be closer to ending if we had 500hp bikes
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1

3. Amongst people who race bikes, and surely this is anecdotal, there are mixed experiences. Enough mix that it appears to be of little consequence, negative or positive, on the use of bike specific oil vs car oil.



Savoy racers choose 30w because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating
temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 at operating temps... so that
means for every 1000 rpms increase your oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30w
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat and you're not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow
off valve...

30w psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve

40w psi
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

50w psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

You see I just don't talk... I went to trouble to installed a digital
oil pressure gauge on MrRC45 to know... 30w at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close
enough to perfect...
MrRC45Oil85Psi.jpg


The same 30w at 203F Oil flowing 10 psi perfect
RC45Coolant203FOil10.jpg


The choice is yours, but choosing a 30w over a 50w is smarter because it will:

1)increase 4 to 6 HP at the rear wheel
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Any one of 30w 100% synthetic motorcycle specific or car oils will meet
and exceed both your racing and mileage expectations...

Quote 540Rat
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION

THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.

• The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much
less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to
thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
important this becomes.

• Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And
oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil
pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker
oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that
only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is
NOT what we are after.

• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil
pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a
higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil
pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.

• The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every
1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more
pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It
is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at
least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of
running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all
the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining
sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is
preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo.
Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil
pressure.

• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine
components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run
thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For
example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them.

Quote Gmtech94

When I raced we were sponsored by an oil company and helped with the
research of their product .The thought at the time was to run 20w50
race oil to provide for the best lubrication under racing conditions
hence no oil related failures . After many races and a lot of real
data research the conclusion was in this case to run a 10w30 oil as it
provided better lubrication and less engine wear over a long period of
time ,remember endurance racing in 24 and 30 hour races . Although we
never had an engine failure due to oil properties we did have a lot of
feedback on engine wear as well as transmission and clutch wear . I
have to say we did abuse these bikes on occasion with spinning the
back wheel to turn the bike as well as the occasional fall .The
ignition was a weak link but I could change out the pulsers in about
17 seconds once the bike was in the pits . In conclusion 10w30 ran
cooler and did not break down as much as the thicker oils did.
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
a 30w
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat


Nope, wrong...most of the heat in the bearing is generated IN the bearing by viscous friction.

But we've been over that time and time again.
 
Good stuff!

Similar to what you are saying here, some of these drag racers are using a weight they refer to as <<0 (not a typo I assume it's 0w) . Alisyn has that weight.
 
This sounds like a complex topic. I don't think he said the heat was or wasn't generated there. Just that the temperature rise through that section would be lower due to increased flow rate.
 
BLS just to be clear I don't race the zx14r. It is my street bike. Sees all kinds of traffic including idling in long congested traffic stops here in Florida. I used 15w50 for that reason. I've swutched to 10w40 and noticed about 2 mpg improvement in highway fuel economy and a slight increase in power, as you'd indicated the positives of using lower weight oil.
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall..


Nope, wrong.

Any oil that is appropriate for your ambient will get oil to the remote points about the same time.

The wear that is being referred to is during the warmup phase, when oil is there, it is flowing, it is starting to thin out, and the additives aren't running the best.

API Sequence IV is in this range...it's running, it's flowing, it's there...it's just wearing.
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is NOT what we are after.


Wrong, flow isn't lubrication.

The bearings will take from thee galleries only that which they need to replace the side leakage.

A thinner oil will have a lower minimum oil film thickness.

A thicker oil will have higher viscous drag and internal temperature rise (and generate higher oil pressure as a result).

Lubrication is balancing the minimum oil film thickness (higher viscosity) with the temperature rise (wasted power) to what you need.

Lubrication is NOT pushing oil through the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
I don't think he said the heat was or wasn't generated there. Just that the temperature rise through that section would be lower due to increased flow rate.


Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated by oil flow, not by oil pressure.


And that's wrong...
 
Hey maybe you could share your CFD simulation results in an animated PowerPoint presentation. We dummies need all the help we can get so please, if you will, leave the differential equations in appendix form at the end.
 
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
Hey maybe you could share your CFD simulation results in an animated PowerPoint presentation. We dummies need all the help we can get so please, if you will, leave the differential equations in appendix form at the end.


Sarcasm FTW...

How bearings work

Dimensionless Numbers for Dummies

Start up wear discussion.

Problem is that Larry keeps wheeling out the same incorrect information over and over and over again, won't listen (to what starts as) constructive criticism, then cut and pastes it all over again.
 
Haha. Just kidding of course. I got something from what he was saying because he does show some measured data.

Having said all that given that the thermal mass and conductivity of two oils having different viscosities (only), one's intuition would hypothesize that a higher mass flow rate, mass/sec, within the volume of fluid flow, the heat would transfer more readily. Additionally, the higher flow rate is substantiated by the lower pressure against the less viscous fluid. And I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying.
 
OK, the bearings will only take what they need to match side leakage...more viscosity lower side leakage, which means the bearing draws less make-up oil.

The artifact of that is oil pressure.

The bearings are "self heated", the shear that takes place on the oil is what raises the oil temperature, not the oil "carrying away heat" from the bearings.

So dropping the viscosity to make more flow through the bearings to provide "better cooling" is wrong. The lower viscosity will generate less heat in the bearings 'though.

Things like piston squirters rely on pressure to operate, more pressure, more oil flow through squirters.

So if you need piston cooling, and your engine has squirters, lowering the oil pressure is the wrong direction for flow AND for cooling.
 
The mechanical engineers (what 540 Rat claims to be) that designed the engine in my Ducati put a frame sticker on it that for oil requirement says "15W50".

Those silly Italians must not know anything about lubrication.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: digitalSniperX1
Hey maybe you could share your CFD simulation results in an animated PowerPoint presentation. We dummies need all the help we can get so please, if you will, leave the differential equations in appendix form at the end.


Sarcasm FTW...

How bearings work

Dimensionless Numbers for Dummies

Start up wear discussion.

Problem is that Larry keeps wheeling out the same incorrect information over and over and over again, won't listen (to what starts as) constructive criticism, then cut and pastes it all over again.


Some folks refuse to learn. I don't know if they reach a point in their lives where they know it all and just refuse to accept fact,or if all the flouride in the water is a factor and they just can't anymore.
My late father was the same way. He learned to frame in the 70s and once he had a system that worked he quit listening.
Larry seems to have a similar defect.

Which is fine if he wants to keep his incorrect assumptions to himself,however when giving advice in a forum one should at least try and be accurate. Which he proves with every post that he isn't.
Just because it sounds right doesn't make it so,and just because Latin thinks he has knowledge doesn't mean he does.
You'd think he'd get tired of his posts getting ripped apart,apparently he likes looking uniformed and ignorant.
We have a forum where there is literally tons of real,accurate info,then we get posters who muck it up spouting garbage. Larry is the latter sadly. Anyone going into his shop is by default getting screwed by listening to him.
 
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