Oil Recommendation for 65 GTO

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What does Lunati recommend?

Just as important as the oil is the break-in procedure for the cam. Make sure that everything is in order when you get ready to fire that engine for the first time, that way you can bring it up to the recommended rpm range for 15-20 minutes (or whatever they recommend).
 
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
What does Lunati recommend?

Just as important as the oil is the break-in procedure for the cam. Make sure that everything is in order when you get ready to fire that engine for the first time, that way you can bring it up to the recommended rpm range for 15-20 minutes (or whatever they recommend).


The tech at Lunati really did not have a recommended ZDDP level for their cams. Lunati now sells Joe Gibbs oil and it is what they recommend. Actually they have a Hot Rod Oil series now like everyone else. And as usual the tech guy had no clue what was in the oil they sell. He told me it had over 1500 PPM Zinc and when I went to Joe Gibb's site I found out it has 1270 PPM. So it makes me wonder if they really know what they are selling and why. This is in keeping with my original thought of 1200 to 1500. So I have some really good choices that are within that range, I just need to make up my mind which one. I am still leaning to the companies that make oil as their main business and not a side business. Amsoil and Classic Car Motor Oil are at the top.

The break-in will be done by the guy doing the machine work. He has the engine stands that allow him to run the engines without them being in the car. Since the car is in the restoration process I did not want it to set there in the car for months before being started.

Dale
 
Was going to suggest looking into Diesel oils like Rotella 15W-40 or even the SuperTech 15W-40. Since you're not doing super-long runs on it between oil changes, you shouldn't have to worry about oxidation, and the ZDDP levels should be ~1500ppm in those oils.
 
Super tech 5w-20.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: DaleGolds
There are a lot of people using the diesel oils, but unfortunately they have come under the EPA lately and have had their ZDDP levels cut as well. That is why I have been thinking of the custom oils made specifically for muscle cars like Comp Cams, Champion, and Amsoil.

The CJ-4 HDEOs are definetly not what the CI-4 versions used to be. However, Rotella oil is one of the better ones and delivers honest ZDDP levels around 1200ppm.
Add in some GM E.O.S. and you'll bump those numbers up nicely, no need to go throught the hassle and expense of exotic oils.

By the way, the EPA does not mandate standards for motor oil directly, yet... Oil producers have been voluntarily cutting ZDDP levels for years.
 
Originally Posted By: charmicarmicat
Was going to suggest looking into Diesel oils like Rotella 15W-40 or even the SuperTech 15W-40. the ZDDP levels should be ~1500ppm in those oils.

No way, the older CI-4+ grade oils easily had ZDDP levels in the 1400-1500ppm range. These days 1200 ppm is the best you can hope for in CJ-4 grade, and some brands are even lower.

Regular passenger car motor oils forget about it, SM/SN grade ZDDP levels are a dismal 700-800ppm. Apparently adequate for modern roller cammed stockers but not a high-perf vintage big block.
 
Originally Posted By: DaleGolds
Originally Posted By: armos
I wouldn't use QS Defy - the ZDDP level in that is kind of a compromise. I believe it's mainly designed for high mileage ~1990s era cars with catalysts. 10w40 has the highest concentration (1200ppm Zn, 1000ppm P) but it's not at a level I'd be comfortable with on a 60s muscle car.


I wrote Quaker State about their ZDDP levels in their new Defy Oil and they were very vague. All they would tell me is its somewhere around 1000 to 1200 even though I was very specific on which oils I was interested in. I do use it in my 2002 Dodge R/T with 175,000 miles. This oil replaced their old High-Mileage Oil that had Slick-50 in it. So far it seems to be doing well in that engine.
Dale


Hmm.. I thought this info was on the datasheet, but after looking at it again, it's not.
What I remember now is I used numbers from this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2743652&page=4
where somebody (on pg4) called and was told 1000ppm Zn for most grades, and 1200ppm for 10w40. It sounded like what was quoted was "Zinc" specifically, not Phosphorus.
There was a VOA on one of the grades, and I used that to estimate the percentage relationship between Phosphorus and Zinc levels. That's how I ended up with the numbers I gave above.
I put those numbers in a spreadsheet and forgot that they're estimated, they aren't backed up by a datasheet. So they might be off.


The only solid thing on the datasheet is that the xW20/30 grades are SL rated. That would limit them to a max of 1000ppm phosphorus (implying Zn a little higher than that). That P limit doesn't apply to 10w40 though and QS advertises a higher dosage on that grade.
 
I would think that a good year round oil for you would be a 10W40... I have used all the above motor oils and if your engine has been broken in, and has 3K miles since rebuild, then any of the mentioned oils would be fine. VR1 with 1200 ZDDP is all you need for flat tappets. You could also add a bottle of Zddplus to just about any oil and get more then enough zinc protection. Just do not over think it.
 
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Holy smoke - you guys are lucky to have such a selection of oils in USA with zddp.

I'm stuck with modern oils here with very low zddp levels and having to add additives.

Currently on TWS with half a bottle of zddpmaxx to 4 litres.

Had run the flat tappets on my 80s alfa for 3 years on Motul previously and both tappets and cams were destroyed.
Don't want a repeat of that for sure after a complete rebuild.
So even though some are against adding extra zddp I think the pros outweigh the cons from previous experience.
 
Originally Posted By: hooligan24
what does the builder/machinist recommend? why do you need the zinc if you are using rollers?


The cam I am using is a flat tappet cam, I wish I could afford to convert to a roller cam, but it is too expensive. My machinist recommends at least 1200 PPM and an oil that is designed for street use. What he sells from his shop is strictly racing oil.
 
Originally Posted By: DaleGolds
Originally Posted By: hooligan24
what does the builder/machinist recommend? why do you need the zinc if you are using rollers?


The cam I am using is a flat tappet cam, I wish I could afford to convert to a roller cam, but it is too expensive. My machinist recommends at least 1200 PPM and an oil that is designed for street use. What he sells from his shop is strictly racing oil.


I heard 1200 is the min too.
Castrol TWS has around 900-1000 ppm so I boosted this up a little.

Problems can arise when idling for some time in traffic as the lobes aren't splashing enough oil onto the lifters (in my case with a flat four boxer).
 
I would like to thank everyone for adding their experience and personal preference for dealing with the current oil issue. I had originally thought of using my favorite brand of oil and adding ZDDPlus. I had actually done a lot of research on this product as well. But I am an old retired Army Officer and I am a believer in the old KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). That is why I set out to see who offered a complete oil that you could just pour in your engine, enjoy your ride, and not worry if you got the proper ratio or if anything bad was going to happen. I had also thought of the problem if you needed to add oil, would this mess up the ratio of ZDDP. Again, keeping it simple with an oil that if you needed to add a 1/4 or 1/2 qt to top off the oil prior to a long trip, you wouldn't have to worry.

I like the idea that Amsoil (1440 PPM Zinc), Champion (1627 PPM Zinc), Classic Car Motor Oil (1600 PPM Zinc), and Lucas (2100 PPM Zinc) are companies that their main theme is oil and it is what they do, it is not a side line product, like Comp Cams and Edelbrock. I do not like the fact that Lucas has 2100 PPM Zinc which seems a little high. Of all of the oils I have looked at, which includes Comp Cams and Edelbrock, I am most impressed with the companies Champion, Amsoil, and Classic. Again, oil is what they do.

Classic Car Motor Oil is actually made by DA Lubricant CO. in Indianapolis and has been in business since 1919. They designed and made the Classic Car Motor Oil for the Classic Car Club of America back in 2007 to meet the requirements of older engines where the newer oils were falling short. The oil is specifically designed for the limited use that classic cars see as well as the requirements of flat tappet cams. The oil also meets the standards set forth in the military's requirements for rust and corrosion control in MIL-PRF-21260E. Can you tell I am impressed with their website? You should actually go there and read their articles they have posted about today's oil, very informative. http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html

The big difference between Amsoil, Champion, and Classic (other than the price) is Amsoil is straight synthetic, Champion is a synthetic blend, and Classic is conventional oil. I really don't know if the synthetic part of the oil makes that much of a difference to make it worth twice as much.

I hope all of this information is useful for others like myself that don't want to have to worry about adding stuff to their oil to make it compatible for their flat tappet cam engines. Yes it is a pain to have to order more expensive oil and have it delivered, but I am planning on ordering a few cases so I have it on hand.

Others have mentioned how much more it is for these oils so here is a comparison. I used the prices at O'Reilly Auto and broke down each product as the price /quart to keep it simple, including shipping and any required taxes for my area. I also tried to compare the same weight of oil for each comparison.

Classic Car Motor Oil, delivered and tax, $6.20/qt.
Amsoil Z Rod, delivered and tax, $11.33/qt.
Champion Classic and Muscle Blend, delivered and tax, $11.33/qt. I also found out that O'Reilly can special order Champion Oil products, $7.99/qt + tax = $8.63.

From O'Reilly Auto:
Vavoline VR-1 $5.99 + tax = $6.47
Mobile 1 $8.99 + tax = $9.71
Lucas Hot Rod (5 qt jug) $7.99 + tax = $8.63; by the qt $9.49 + tax = $10.25
Royal Purple $9.79 + tax = $10.58
Edelbrock $8.99 + tax = $9.72

Now let's look at adding ZDDPlus to our favorite motor oil. The cost for ZDDPlus is around $10 a bottle, add in shipping and you can get it for about $12/bottle. Now the instructions from the ZDDPlus website says it treats a typical 5 qt oil tank. But my car uses 6 quarts which means I would need to add 1 1/5 bottles to a 6 quart pan so I would have to buy additional bottles. If you break it down per quart it comes to a cost of $2.40/qt. Now let's look at some over the counter oils sold at O'Reilly.

Quaker State $5.49 + tax = $5.93 + ZDDPlus = $8.33
Castrol $5.59 + tax = $6.04 + ZDDPlus = $8.44
Pennzoil $6.59 + tax = $7.12 + ZDDPlus = $9.52
Mobile $5.59 + tax = $6.04 + ZDDPlus = $8.44

Other popular oils.
Joe Gibbs Hot Rod Oil, price plus shipping, $11.93/qt
Brad Penn Racing Oil, price plus shipping $7.00/qt. This price is at Amazon and has free shipping if you order at least $25 worth of the product. At other sites it was a lot more.

So I really don't see where it is that much more expensive, actually the Classic Muscle Car Oil is a lot less when you compare them. The only one that comes close is the Vavoline VR-1 but it has a lot less Zinc in it and some are actually adding ZDDP to it to get its numbers higher. So why use it if you have to add ZDDP to it and make it even more expensive? The same holds true to the modern diesel oils since they have had their Zinc levels cut as well. The most expensive oil is the Amsoil Z Rod oil unless you are lucky enough to have a dealer in your town, I do not.

Sorry this got so long, but I hope it is helpful for others like me that are looking for a simple solution to the current oil situation.
Dale
 
Originally Posted By: DaleGolds
Originally Posted By: hooligan24
what does the builder/machinist recommend? why do you need the zinc if you are using rollers?


The cam I am using is a flat tappet cam, I wish I could afford to convert to a roller cam, but it is too expensive. My machinist recommends at least 1200 PPM and an oil that is designed for street use. What he sells from his shop is strictly racing oil.

Take your pick from 1st page:

-> Corvette forum: List of flat tappet oils
 
This article illustrates exactly what happened to my old cam!.
Same damage. Scary.

cam damage

Had trouble finding original cams again for my alfa so now I'm very cautious about using Motul again.
Castrol with ZDDP added right now. All smooth and quiet.

Edge in a 50 wt is not available here unfortunately. 40wt is but too light.
 
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