Oil polarity, tendency to stay on metal over time

[LoneRanger]

In the foggy corners of my memory I remember something about Grp II conventional base stocks having more of a tendency to stick to the metal in the engine over longer periods of non-operation than Grp III or Grp IV bases, thus possibily providing some start up lubrication benefit over Grp III, IV in the engine of a "garage queen." Something about polarity? And I seem to remember Grp V ester base also has this similar property of staying on the metal longer.

 

[dparm]

I have never heard that group II has polarity like that. Typically group V is added in a very small amount to a lot of oils to give it that polar tendency. Esters are definitely polar.

http://blusynthetic.com/corporate/ester-polarity

 

[Quest]

oil which contains esters (polar) definitely sticks/adheres to metal surface better.

That how a hand bar soap and AutoRx works.

Q.

 

[Ben99GT]

base oil polarity goes a little like:
POE & other esters > group I > group II > group III > PAO

 

[CATERHAM]

You could be right although I do know PAOs have lower polarity than GP I,II and III based mineral oils.
Of course we're talking about base oils and not fully formulated final products. At the end of the day all oils contain polar elements that assist in boundary lubrication, the most common being ZDDP and moly.
I find the big issue with garage queens is the lack of oil pressure on start-up for a few crucial seconds when engines haven't been run for a couple of months or more. Short of installing a pre-oiler I haven't found a solution. I've tried pulling the plugs and spinning the engine over on the starter to generate oil pressure but even a full minute of running on the start won't prime the engine enough to generate OP. It seems the starter can't spin the engine fast enough to be effective. A "death rattle" for a couple of seconds once fired up seems inevitable. I've been assured by some that it doesn't do any harm but I hate it.

 

[tig1]

I've wondered this myself. Several months ago I checked the Focus for oil remaining on the one cam lobe that can be seem. I rubbed the lobe and it still had a very nice oily film on it even after a day or two of setting.

 

[CATERHAM]

A day or two is nothing, nor is a week for any oil, but try a month or more.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
A day or two is nothing, nor is a week for any oil, but try a month or more.


That ain't happinin. Not with the way we drive.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You could be right although I do know PAOs have lower polarity than GP I,II and III based mineral oils.
Of course we're talking about base oils and not fully formulated final products. At the end of the day all oils contain polar elements that assist in boundary lubrication, the most common being ZDDP and moly.
I find the big issue with garage queens is the lack of oil pressure on start-up for a few crucial seconds when engines haven't been run for a couple of months or more. Short of installing a pre-oiler I haven't found a solution. I've tried pulling the plugs and spinning the engine over on the starter to generate oil pressure but even a full minute of running on the start won't prime the engine enough to generate OP. It seems the starter can't spin the engine fast enough to be effective. A "death rattle" for a couple of seconds once fired up seems inevitable. I've been assured by some that it doesn't do any harm but I hate it.


Wasn't the answer supposed to be Duralube (and others)?

 

[paulswagelock]

My 65 sits months on end. When I was using M1 10w30 it had the death rattle at startup. Since I switched to Brad Penn racing oil, it has not, even after 5 month winter layup. I always use MC oil filters, so the only difference is the oil. Maybe a low tech group II ( guessing) oil does stay attached longer. Now if I used M1 15w50 it would rattle after a day of sitting. Not scientific of course, but the oil is the only real variable.

 

[Provi]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
A day or two is nothing, nor is a week for any oil, but try a month or more.


That ain't happinin. Not with the way we drive.


I was in Iraq from April to October (treated the gas before I left)). Before cranking my car I pulled the plugs and put a little oil in each cylender and ran the starter(dissabled the injectors), there was oil being pumped up into the cams and rockers, put plugs in and fired up like normal.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
A day or two is nothing, nor is a week for any oil, but try a month or more.


+1 Which is why I installed a pre-luber on my van. My van would sit for weeks sometimes months w/o use. With the pre-luber its flip a toggle switch, watch the oil pressure build and fire it up. I think its a great idea for garage Queens.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
base oil polarity goes a little like:
POE & other esters > group I > group II > group III > PAO


Yep, that's it.

 

[GMorg]

I agree with Ben and Shannow, but the ranking doesn't show just how extreme the difference is. The dearly beloved PAO is NON-polar. It really can't be put on a polarity scale. It's like comparing table salt on a sweetness scale - salt isn't sweet at all.

 

[CATERHAM]

Except, all PAO based oils contain esters to balance them off.
And it only takes a small ester percentage in a finished oil to get the net polar effect.

 

[boxcartommie22]

my raptor and grand marquis sits when start up no noise whatsoever

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Except, all PAO based oils contain esters to balance them off.


I'm not so sure about that. There was one brand of motor oil posted a while back (don't remember the brand) that claimed to be pure PAO, other than the add pack.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: GMorg
I agree with Ben and Shannow, but the ranking doesn't show just how extreme the difference is. The dearly beloved PAO is NON-polar. It really can't be put on a polarity scale. It's like comparing table salt on a sweetness scale - salt isn't sweet at all.


Very true, and group III is essentially non-polar as well.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Except, all PAO based oils contain esters to balance them off.

I'm not so sure about that. There was one brand of motor oil posted a while back (don't remember the brand) that claimed to be pure PAO, other than the add pack.


And that add' pack could include 10-15% ester.
The same is claimed with the 100% PAO based Esso Extra XD-3 now called Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30. That's advertizing, where 100% PAO based means predominately PAO which may only be 60% of the finished oil.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Except, all PAO based oils contain esters to balance them off.

I'm not so sure about that. There was one brand of motor oil posted a while back (don't remember the brand) that claimed to be pure PAO, other than the add pack.


And that add' pack could include 10-15% ester.
The same is claimed with the 100% PAO based Esso Extra XD-3 now called Mobil Delvac Elite 222 0W-30. That's advertizing, where 100% PAO based means predominately PAO which may only be 60% of the finished oil.


The oil I was referring to is Amtecol, the MSDS shows the PAO content to be greater than 70%. From memory I thought they were claiming 80-90% PAO. The additive carrier could be anything that will solubilize the additives, not necessarily an ester.