Oil for older style engine

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old farmer

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Oct 4, 2005
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Corunna, Ontario, Canada
Well here's a what should I use? type question.
What should I use in my old Ford 302 with standard flat lifters
in a truck?
It's done up with high comp pistons, performance cam, 4 barrel carb and dual exhaust.
It needs something to protect that camshaft.
 
Just my opinions:

Syn:

Rotella 5w-40
Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40
Mobil 1 15w-50
Redline 5w-40
Amsoil 5w-40

Dino:

Rotella 15w40
Mobil Delvac 15w40
Any other dual rated HDEO
 
Last edited:
What specs on the cam? The more zinc the better. HDEO's have good zinc, so that's a plus. I run RTS 5W-40 in my 86 F-150 flat tappet 5.0 EFI. RV style cam.
 
SM is light on Zinc. Red Line makes a break in oil additive which can be used all the time. It is loaded with Zinc and is certainly another option.
 
Originally Posted By: old farmer
Well here's a what should I use? type question.
What should I use in my old Ford 302 with standard flat lifters
in a truck?
It's done up with high comp pistons, performance cam, 4 barrel carb and dual exhaust.
It needs something to protect that camshaft.


You probably want an oil with 1000-1200 ppm zddp. I'm not sure if the dual rated CJ/SM HDEO still have that much zddp or not. Maybe someone else can confirm that. Most of them are 40wts too. I think 40wt is heavier than you really need, and I prefer 5W30 and 10W30. But if the HDEOs have the higher zddp then they would be a good economical choice. Except for Rotella S which probably cost as much as say Mobil 1 High Mileage. So I would recommend Mobil 1 10W30 HM.
 
Originally Posted By: old farmer
It's a new rebuild, no miles yet.
Cam is .456" lift, 268 duration.
Are these oils SM rated?
Does SM still have good zinc?


The best advice I've seen is use 1/2 bottle of Redline break-in additive for break-in. Run the engine at around 2000 RPMs for the first 15-20 mins to break in cam good. Change oil within about 1000 or so miles (refer to the oil recommendation above). Maybe use the other half bottle of Redline break-in then change oil after maybe 3k miles and then follow regular oil changes with one of the recommended oils.
 
You'll be just fine with M1 TDT 5w40 and you can grab it at Walmart. We've run it in SBC's with much wilder spec's than that.

Question:

With the ease of switching a 302 to roller, why didn't you go that route? You can get a much more "modern" cam profile with better ramps, and completely eliminate this worry.......
 
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.

Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.
 
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.


Yeah and with a roller cam, You have to take into consideration compatibility with the fuel pump pushrod for a mechanical pump and the distibutor driven gear. Not to mention different length pushrods and suitable valve springs and valve lift clearances. All of this can be covered with packaged kits but it's more $$$.

Quote:
Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.



Can someone comfirm the zddp additive level in these dual rated CJ/SM HDEOs?
 
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.

Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.



Same goes for the stock roller Mustang cams. Dirt cheap.

Often you can get the roller lifters, spider hold down and dog-bones to go with it too. Not an expensive swap.

302's went roller in the cars in 1985. There are a LOT of them out there.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.


Yeah and with a roller cam, You have to take into consideration compatibility with the fuel pump pushrod for a mechanical pump and the distibutor driven gear. Not to mention different length pushrods and suitable valve springs and valve lift clearances. All of this can be covered with packaged kits but it's more $$$.

Quote:
Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.



Can someone comfirm the zddp additive level in these dual rated CJ/SM HDEOs?


This is a 302. I've owned five of them. I'm pretty familiar. So let me address your points:

1. Fuel pump eccentric: This can be carried over from the flat tappet cam and bolted to the end of the roller cam. It is a separate piece.

2. The distributor gear from 1985 and later can be used. Or the entire distributor from a 1985 Mustang (or other Ford car like a Vic) can be used (I got mine for 50 bucks) that guarantees compatibility with the roller core.

3. He's running an aftermarket camshaft currently. So all of the things like piston-to-valve clearance, pushrod length, spring pressure and the like would have had to have been checked anyways. This is not a series of extra steps.

4. If it is good enough for a diesel, it will work in a flat tappet gasser. The pressures inside a diesel are much higher than a gasser on numerous contact surfaces.

I just converted my '87 GT engine (which has heads/cam/intake) to carb this summer. It sits in an '82 Capri.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.


Yeah and with a roller cam, You have to take into consideration compatibility with the fuel pump pushrod for a mechanical pump and the distibutor driven gear. Not to mention different length pushrods and suitable valve springs and valve lift clearances. All of this can be covered with packaged kits but it's more $$$.

Quote:
Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.



Can someone comfirm the zddp additive level in these dual rated CJ/SM HDEOs?


This is a 302. I've owned five of them. I'm pretty familiar. So let me address your points:

1. Fuel pump eccentric: This can be carried over from the flat tappet cam and bolted to the end of the roller cam. It is a separate piece.

2. The distributor gear from 1985 and later can be used. Or the entire distributor from a 1985 Mustang (or other Ford car like a Vic) can be used (I got mine for 50 bucks) that guarantees compatibility with the roller core.

3. He's running an aftermarket camshaft currently. So all of the things like piston-to-valve clearance, pushrod length, spring pressure and the like would have had to have been checked anyways. This is not a series of extra steps.


OK but I was talking in general terms of why not run a roller. There's still a bit of a cost difference.

Quote:
4. If it is good enough for a diesel, it will work in a flat tappet gasser. The pressures inside a diesel are much higher than a gasser on numerous contact surfaces.


Not necessarily because an aftermarket flat tappet cam has a lot of pressure at the lifter contacts. My question is do the CJ/SM HDEO still have at least 1000-1200 ppm zddp or not?

Quote:
I just converted my '87 GT engine (which has heads/cam/intake) to carb this summer. It sits in an '82 Capri.


Why would anyone convert fuel injection over to carb with so many easily..j/k.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Rollers are more expensive, and some people just like old stuff. We used to put in the standard flat tappet LT1 cam in most of our SB Chevys cause they were good cams and cheap as dirt.


Yeah and with a roller cam, You have to take into consideration compatibility with the fuel pump pushrod for a mechanical pump and the distibutor driven gear. Not to mention different length pushrods and suitable valve springs and valve lift clearances. All of this can be covered with packaged kits but it's more $$$.

Quote:
Any Diesel Oil will work fine. You can get various brands in 10w30 as well as the standard 5w40 and 15w40 grades. Im running Rotella 10w30 in my Monte SS with a nice small block.



Can someone comfirm the zddp additive level in these dual rated CJ/SM HDEOs?


This is a 302. I've owned five of them. I'm pretty familiar. So let me address your points:

1. Fuel pump eccentric: This can be carried over from the flat tappet cam and bolted to the end of the roller cam. It is a separate piece.

2. The distributor gear from 1985 and later can be used. Or the entire distributor from a 1985 Mustang (or other Ford car like a Vic) can be used (I got mine for 50 bucks) that guarantees compatibility with the roller core.

3. He's running an aftermarket camshaft currently. So all of the things like piston-to-valve clearance, pushrod length, spring pressure and the like would have had to have been checked anyways. This is not a series of extra steps.


OK but I was talking in general terms of why not run a roller. There's still a bit of a cost difference.


In this instance, he could have grabbed all the stock stuff from a Mustang, including the cam, and probably SAVED money.

Quote:
Quote:
4. If it is good enough for a diesel, it will work in a flat tappet gasser. The pressures inside a diesel are much higher than a gasser on numerous contact surfaces.


Not necessarily because an aftermarket cam has a lot of pressure at the lifter contacts. My question is do the CJ/SM HDEO still have at least 1000-1200 ppm zddp or not?


Diesels have more pressure. And they are also much harder on oil, especially the ones that pressurize the oil to fire the injectors (HEUI).

Think of a combustion chamber the size of your thumb. Then add 35lbs of boost. Then try to open the exhaust valve. Diesel engines are much harder on oil.

This is also why many engine builders recommend 15w40/5w40 for their high performance flat tappet builds, including the one I know.

Quote:
Quote:
I just converted my '87 GT engine (which has heads/cam/intake) to carb this summer. It sits in an '82 Capri.


Why would anyone covert fuel injection to a carb with some many easily..j/k.


Cost. I sold my EFI setup to finish the car. I MADE $1,000 off the parts after completely converting to carb.

I also like the clean look the carb provides. The car isn't daily driven anymore and will probably just see touring around and some drag-strip time.
 
Might I add that a lot of people go to carbs as they are easier for joe blow to tune on his own.

And for rollers, I realize that a lot of small blocks went roller in the 80's but a lot of those motors were not exactly better power makers compared to their flat tappet 60's brothers. I would prefer an inexpensive flat tappet cam speced for a LT1 350 than a roller cam from a smogger 350 motor.
 
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Might I add that a lot of people go to carbs as they are easier for joe blow to tune on his own.


Yup, and they LOOK good!!! I have an HP750, and it is VERY pretty!

carbswap01.jpg


Quote:
And for rollers, I realize that a lot of small blocks went roller in the 80's but a lot of those motors were not exactly better power makers compared to their flat tappet 60's brothers. I would prefer an inexpensive flat tappet cam speced for a LT1 350 than a roller cam from a smogger 350 motor.


Speaking EXCLUSIVELY for Ford here, the Mustang camshaft from '87-93 was actually a pretty decent grind. .444/.444 lift and 212/212 at .050 IIRC. Slap on a set of pedestal mount 1.7 ratio Cobra rockers (dirt cheap) and you've got a complete roller valvetrain and .472 lift.

You must also remember that how HP was measured changed significantly from the 60's to the 80's. A 225HP 302 from 1987 makes in the neighbourhood of 300HP using the 1960's SAE gross figure.

In fact, an interesting note: Carcraft made 278HP with a BONE STOCK Mustang 302 on an engine dyno with doing nothing more than converting it to carb.

A set of AFR 165 heads on it, while retaining the STOCK CAM, and it made 382HP. Added the same rockers I mentioned above, and it made 405HP..... Still using the STOCK Mustang cam.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0307_ford_302_v8_engine_buildup/index.html
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Might I add that a lot of people go to carbs as they are easier for joe blow to tune on his own.


Yup, and they LOOK good!!! I have an HP750, and it is VERY pretty!

carbswap01.jpg




I think the Holley HPs are better quality than Demons. The Demons had QC issues, wacky metering block calibrations and air bleeds but I think people had trouble with the HP's metering blocks too for getting a perfect fuel curve tune-the idle feed restriction would be too big, the idle air bleed and main air bleed would be sized way off, too many emulsion tube holes etc. Basically they would have maybe a too rich transition off idle, and a too rich midrange and a lean top end, totally backwards, and jet changes would not fix the tune. Basically they had to go back to close to the universal Holley 3310 sizes. That carb was originally tuned by OEMs and works pretty good on most engines. Well one good thing about the Demons and HPs is they have removalble bleeds so it's easier to tune without having to drill and tap removable ones in, oh yeah and they look good.
 
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