Oil for 1st change - Lexus IS350

[ScottB]

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Please, before any more dumb posts, show me some pics of a 5000 miles clogged filter off a nearly-new car.

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Please, AU, show ME a case where following the owner's manual and "wasting money/time" on "overkill" maintenance have done damage to a car.
Plenty of evidence to the over-entension of OCIs, but none that I've read with my methodology.
What if all the people who had the "sludgemonster" Toyota Camry engines had run M1 and 3-4k OCIs? They may have not found out there was a sludge problem because it might have been averted.
What is the next sludgemonster?
Do you know?

And can you show me the "It's an automobile manufacturer RECOMMENDED practice, FYI." I've never seen that - very interesting.
While I can believe that a lightly used (i.e., clogged) filter can possibly filter particulates better, it certainly can't flow better.
I'll stay on the safe side and continue to waste my time and money.
Cripes - there's guys here (are you one?) that drive all over the US looking for the GC that some think is so great. I read posts where guys drive all over hoarding additives and other supplies.
You think I'm wasting my time/money?

None of you "you're wasting your money" guys have ever taken me up on my offer to buy/use my oil/filters in their cars.
I'm happy to send it with free shipping...

Scott

[ May 28, 2006, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: ScottB ]

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by Auto-Union:

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"It's an automobile manufacturer RECOMMENDED practice, FYI." I've never seen that - very interesting

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Before you post your "expert" opinon, it would help of you read-up on oem service practices in this area. Honda and Acura are 10k on oil and 20k on the tiny lemon-sized filter. Audi oem filters (Mann) say 30,000km on their side. On the contrary, BMW owners who wait until the oem-approved 15,000 miles to service their oil and filter might be well-advised to take the ~simple~ step of oil drain/extraction at the midway point. I'm sorry if you find my common-sense approach beyond comprehension.

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A-U: Your position isn't exactly fair. You are demanding "facts" from others, yet your opinion is supported, in your own words, by "common sense". Can you tell us at exactly what point (time and/or miles) the filter for this car begins to saturate with contaminants? None of us can, including you! I've cut open eight or nine of my used filters over the last couple years. Thankfully, I've seen nothing horrifying, but I have made one relatively consistently observation -- there is a color shade difference between the "dirty" and "clean" side of the element, when you carve it off and stretch it out. It's quite apparent that there's something building up in those filter elements. Now, when is there enough stuff that the filter's performance degrades, or heaven forbid, the thing starts bypassing when it shouldn't, who knows??? With all this in mind, and the fact that neither of my car makers (Toyota or Infiniti) endorses the every-other-OCI filter change, I'm quite happy to slap on even "expensive" premium filters (M1 or K&N at slightly over $10) with each and every OCI (btw, the Sequoia'a filter is easy; the G35's a horrendous PITA). The original poster should stick with every OCI because the cost is negligble, it avoids possible wty claim hassles, and it's what the guys who designed this particular engine recommend. I can see what you're saying, for some other situations (perhaps the owner who insists on ultra-short OCIs), but in this case, respectfully, I don't think your argument holds water.

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by Mustang_Cougar:
(...snip...)
5) When the auto manufacturer requires a filter change at each oil change, it's not "recommended." You don't change your filter, you don't get recourse when you have an oil-related engine repair. What part of that don't you understand?
(...snip...)

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M-C: Respectfully, this statement is not consistent with applicable law. US new car warrantys are governed by the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act (MMWA), which provides some interesting, and not widely understood rights and obligations. In this scenario, if there were an engine failure, Toyota-Lexus decided to deny the owner's claim, and the mess wound up in court, Toyota could NOT prevail simply because the owner failed to follow the recommendation to install a new filter with each oil change. Under the MMWA, Toyota alone would bear the burden of proving that the failure to change filters as recommended was the actual cause of the engine failure. This causal link is required, and it's the manufacturer's responsibility (not the owner's to prove he did the right thing). Another way to look at it, is that the mfr is not allowed to deny wty claims simply as a "penalty" or "punishment" for failing to follow the maintenance schedule. They must still prove the actual causal link, or the owner wins, even if didn't do what the schedule requires.

 

[Alcibiades]

I didn't know about that law. Interesting, and good.

I'll still change my filter every OC, though, because who wants to go to court for anything? Plus I agree with your argument: there is build up, obviously, so change it because we cannot know ahead of time when there is too much build up.

Oil filter changes are cheap insurance against costly repairs (however remote the possiblity) and court fees, lawyers, and time.

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by Alcibiades:
(...snip...)Oil filter changes are cheap insurance against costly repairs (however remote the possiblity) and court fees, lawyers, and time.

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By the way, if you win a MMWA case, you can collect your reasonable attorney's fees and costs from the mfr. But yeah, as much as I enjoy a good court fight (you know, it's what I do for a living...), usually the best advice I can give a potential client is to do whatever they can, within reason, to avoid the fight in the first place (even if they'd win in the end). An oil filter is a cheap premium to pay to buy some peace (and peace of mind)!

 

[ekpolk]

Everyone please also remember that this isn't a place to get your legal advice! Interpreting how the MMWA applies to any particular situation can be very complicated -- see your own lawyer if you think you have a problem. Also, the MMWA does NOT apply to most forms of extended wtys that the dealers so commonly push. If one of those says you must wear a green tutu and a tiara while getting your oil changed, you should probably do so (and take dated pictures so you can prove you did)!

A silly example, but you see where I'm going, I hope.

 

[Alcibiades]

My dealer DID say to wear a green tutu while getting the oil changed, but I only have mauve and lilac. Should I be worried?

I think I will stop with this thread now before I get into trouble. Cheers everyone.

 

[Mustang_Cougar]

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Originally posted by ekpolk: Respectfully, this statement is not consistent with applicable law....

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Ekpolk,

I agree 100% with the spirit of your statement. But I think it's fair to say that dealers put the onus of proving it on the little guy, who most likely has never had an engine failure and knows nothing of MMWA. Maybe I'm being cynical, but it's easier for me to imagine a dealer giving the run around and forcing someone to get a lawyer rather than to go ahead and fix the problem first. It seems that it almost takes a class-action lawsuit for manufacturers to remedy a problem that should have originally been addressed with MMWA on a per-incident basis.

My main implication was that by changing the filter regularly, according to the recommended maintenance schedule, you take one more "speed bump" out of the process if you do have an engine failure.

 

[sxg6]

If i were in your shoes, i would run a synthetic blend from valvoline or castrol in 5w-30. I would also change it every 5k and keep the reciepts for warranty purposes.

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by Mustang_Cougar:

quote:

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Originally posted by ekpolk: Respectfully, this statement is not consistent with applicable law....

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Ekpolk,

I agree 100% with the spirit of your statement. But I think it's fair to say that dealers put the onus of proving it on the little guy, who most likely has never had an engine failure and knows nothing of MMWA. Maybe I'm being cynical, but it's easier for me to imagine a dealer giving the run around and forcing someone to get a lawyer rather than to go ahead and fix the problem first. It seems that it almost takes a class-action lawsuit for manufacturers to remedy a problem that should have originally been addressed with MMWA on a per-incident basis.

My main implication was that by changing the filter regularly, according to the recommended maintenance schedule, you take one more "speed bump" out of the process if you do have an engine failure.

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In practical terms, I certainly agree. In fact, no kidding, I've decided, largely from what I've seen here, that when I demobilize and return to practice, I'm adding new car wty cases to my product line. The local dealers are going to be lovin' me. . .

 

[ekpolk]

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Originally posted by Auto-Union:
I think everyone's points have been fairly made. Just to add, for the point of demonstration, I have a 2006 Acura. I dumped the FF at 2500 miles, sorta early, and am doing 2 5000 mile runs on Havoline Synth + Havoline 5w-20 using the SAME P1 filter. That's according to mfg "Severe" recommendations. Will my car suffer even minimally from re-using (if that word even applies) the high-quality filter? Not at all. I'll even cut it open for the nay-sayers. One added benefit I have is that I run some Delo 30 through the engine to clean and clear it inbetween changes. Any total accumulation of under 10,000 miles with a good filter is no worry. For extractor pump owners or people with difficult filters AND for sludge-makers, fluid-only changes are cost-effective. Heck, make-up a dollar-based OC budget and I bet it can be tweeked for the best with alternating fluid-only services.

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A-U: The only thing I'd add is that Honda/Acura endorses this practice, while some other mfrs don't. Now really, I don't expect that that's because Toyota engines are generating volumes of junk, while Hondas aren't. For most owners with healthy engines, they can probably do this safely. OTOH, for owners of sludge makers, I would not recommend this practice. As the smaller particles aggregate, and work toward becoming something that can settle out as "sludge," I'd want the most effective filter I could have to trap as much of that stuff as I could. I'd feel a lot more comfortable about all this if cars were built with some form of indicator that the filter was becoming clogged. As I've mentioned before (other thread, months ago), this isn't rocket science. In the jet I flew long ago, we had such a light for the fuel system. It used two pressure sensors, up and down stream of the filters. When the delta reached the preset point, the warning light came on, indicating that the filter was becoming clogged. Gee, it might cost $50 to install such a system in a car, so we'll never see it. . .

 

[JohnBrowning]

Vad, we are not talking about any engine or all engines! We are talking about a Toyota/Lexus. Toyota V6's are well known to shear oil badly and oxidize the oil quickly. Toyota V6's do best with synthetic as they resist shearing and oxidation much better then dino oils. Insolubles is the limiting factor with Toyota's engine excludeing the V8's. THe I4 and V6 are all hard on oil. Wear is never an issue with a properly function Toyota engine. IF he were to run dino he would have to change it by 3000 miles to keep the engine as clean as most of us on this site like.

Mobil-1 oils and Toyota's are like bread and butter they just go good together. Sure more costly oils like Amsoil,Redline,Synergen do even better but the added cost usualy is not worth the difference in performance in these aplication. I can go 6 months or 7500 miles with synthetics and my engien has beat the snot out of the oil in terms of oxidation and insolubles. Dureing the witner 6 months and 3500 miles had used up a lot of M1R 0W30's capacity.

The oil and oil change interval must match the application. This is why a lot of guys that have been on this site for a long time often recomend M1 with Toyota's itis a cost to performance situation.

 

[jhc]

Thank you all for the replies. I certainly didn't intend to get fur to stand on end; however, banter is good and hopefully leads people to be open to the ideas of others and to think.

In any event, I went with Havoline 5W30 and a new filter cartridge (first car I've ever owned with this particular setup). I do plan to dump at around 3k miles and go with a 5W30 synthetic, most likely M1.

I've never done an oil analysis but plan on doing so with this car. Unfortunately, I was unprepared to capture a sample of the factory fill but will do so with the Havoline.

Thanks again, guys. I read several forums but this is by far my favorite.

Joe

 

[ekpolk]

Joe:

This will generate debate too (

), but I strongly recommend the Blackstone sample pump. It uses tubing you thread down the dipstick guide, and is cleaner and easier than capturing a sample from the drain. Also, you can take a sample at any time. It cost me ~$25 IIRC when I got mine a couple years ago. A very nicely made item; I expect mine to last for years.

 

[Auto-Union]

Can someone recommend an oversize filter for the poster?

 

[jhc]

ekpolk,
Thanks for the advice. I think I will look into the sample pump; makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[The Critic]

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Originally posted by Auto-Union:
Can someone recommend an oversize filter for the poster?

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The oil filter on this vehicle is a cartridge unit that fits inside a canister. The cartridge must be a specific size or else it will not fit inside the canister. And no, it is not possible to retrofit the existing filter canister with a larger unit.

 

[jhc]

This may be a naive question, but what would have been the reasoning behind Toyota going with a cartridge filter as opposed to a self-contained unit?

 

[The Critic]

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This may be a naive question, but what would have been the reasoning behind Toyota going with a cartridge filter as opposed to a self-contained unit?

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The usage of a cartridge oil filter would eliminate the need for a metal can, as metal is becoming increasingly expensive and are not the most environmentally friendly material. But the primary motive behind the top-mounted, cartridge oil filter unit is accessibility. It is much easier and less messy to change a top-mounted cartridge unit than it is to change a spin-on filter. It can also completely eliminate the need to jack up the vehicle for an oil change. You can remove the cartridge filter to release the pressure, extract the oil through the dipstick tube using a Mityvac, install a new filter, and refill...fast and no need to get dirty. However, in return, you pay about $2-$3 more per filter.

 

[jhc]

In order to get to the filter on this particular vehicle, I did need to get it off the ground and access the canister via a removable panel underneath the car. Additionally, the canister on this car is mounted parallel to the ground (Critic, I assume that was what you were referring to by top-mounted?).

J