Engine oil capacity initial fill vs., engine oil capacity with an oil AND filter change is more than a subtle difference.It would appear to be a negligible concern to do one and the other or to do one and not the other. the dirty oil left behind in the engine is much greater than what's left behind in the filter.new oil is dirty, around 40 microns and a nominal filter rating of 20 microns would suggest the used oil filter has the potential to be more effective initially.A premium filter, with an oil filter change every second or third oil change is what I do.my system works and is good for the environment and saves money! I've got 255,108 miles to prove it. never done a UOA yet.
oil filter r/r
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Originally Posted By: lewk
new oil is dirty, around 40 microns
Huh??
new oil is dirty, around 40 microns
Huh??
I have heard this too. My cousin works at a truck stop in one of the service bays and he tells me some of the owner operators suggests not filling up the new oil filters. They say that you are pouring in unfiltered oil. I disagree with this statement to a certain extent but would rather have unfiltered oil go in the oil filter than putting on a dry filter that can hold up to 2-3 quarts (in a big rig) and have a delay in oil pressure.
OCI is every 4K-7K miles.I prefer the bosch with filtech media but will settle for ac-delco.My filter is oriented to allow for a prefill which I would recommend.I don't recall where on the internet I came across the info on the level of contaminants in new fluids but critical application usually use a pre filtering method prior to introducing the fluid in the equipment. hydraulic systems some engines. In the military this was SOP.
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New oil can be dirty. If you look at some of the first posts of Stinky Peterson (Mark Mathys - may he rest in peace) he came on to the board showing us VOA particle counts and images of debris. Many of the particles were additives that had not been put into suspension ..but there were still BIG CHUNKS. In his bulk oil dealings with mining/construction, significant wear reductions were achieved by implementing dispensing/filtering mods.
Since we consider everything here ..it's something to ponder. Like most of our tinkerings, it probably just means we have slightly healthier engines from a lubrication standpoint when we retire them ..but
I never fretted over the leftovers in a filter or engine. For me it's the presumed level of loading in the filter. If it's a larger percentage of the sump, then you may ponder it a bit ..like with something like a Motor Guard or Frantz. There you're at about 8 tp changes (in a 5+1 quart sump) before you're at a mature sump. That is, a point where the original oil is lower in % than the new oil being introduced.
Most of us are looking at a half quart of leftovers at most. Some engines (I think rotory) leave a substantial amount.
So you've got 9 parts new and 1 part old
Cut the leftovers by 90% each time. The remaining leftovers have one OCI more age to them at each evolution. 90% of them go away each time you change.
Since we consider everything here ..it's something to ponder. Like most of our tinkerings, it probably just means we have slightly healthier engines from a lubrication standpoint when we retire them ..but
I never fretted over the leftovers in a filter or engine. For me it's the presumed level of loading in the filter. If it's a larger percentage of the sump, then you may ponder it a bit ..like with something like a Motor Guard or Frantz. There you're at about 8 tp changes (in a 5+1 quart sump) before you're at a mature sump. That is, a point where the original oil is lower in % than the new oil being introduced.
Most of us are looking at a half quart of leftovers at most. Some engines (I think rotory) leave a substantial amount.
So you've got 9 parts new and 1 part old
Cut the leftovers by 90% each time. The remaining leftovers have one OCI more age to them at each evolution. 90% of them go away each time you change.
It seems like I once read something about the possibility that a little old oil in with new oil was actually better than pure fresh oil. I can't explain it, so it doesn't really make sense to me intuitively, but it's something that stuck in my brain. Does anyone else remember what I'm talking about?
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There was some side effect data collected in some study (Ford's, perhaps when doing their 5w-20 deal- I don't recall) that found that a somewhat more mature sump showed less wear metals than a newer one. More accurately stated, there was a transitional mileage where metals sharply upramped ..then retreated. It was sorta suggested that changing oil too often was bad for the engine because of that oddity. There's been no comprehensive study that I'm aware of that has determined its origin. The speculation ranges from seating process of new oil in its AW formations to resuspension of residual film layers (which can sorta be the same thing). It is very unlikely that it's actually removal of "new metal" and is more likely liberation of entrained metals that were already, or at least at one time, in suspension.
I change my oil and filter every 4 months and the mileage on the oil can be anywhere from 1700 miles to 3000 miles; makes no difference to me.
Maxlife from Wal-Mart is about $12. The filter from AutoZone is about $4.
In the grand scheme of domesticated financial expenditures . . . that's cheap!
Maxlife from Wal-Mart is about $12. The filter from AutoZone is about $4.
In the grand scheme of domesticated financial expenditures . . . that's cheap!
novaman: maybe it was one of the filter studies or oil challenge events your thinking of.iirc the topping off with fresh oil had a positive effect on TBN. the whole being greater than the sum of the parts effect, similar to a group dynamic.OLM are proliferating a a pretty fast clip,the paradigm shift is heading quickly towards maturity and soon saturation. my point is the OCI impacts old oil and old filters.who among us has EVER went out and changed a filter and not consider changing the oil with 8,10 or12k miles of use and abuse on that lifeblood in our crankcase?15k on a good premium is easy.not changing both because its habit or ingrained,this is a conflict minds war over.
I think if doing short ocis with a cheap oil, you can leave a small filter in place or drain it and re-use. If I am pouring in $30 worth of German Syntec or AMSoil, I want a new filter too. Likely the longer oci with the synth oil will equate to the lifespan of a new filter. Short change on cheap oil can go 2 or 3 times, assuming 10k is ok for a basic ST-type filter.
Shure, draining the oil at 3000 miles leaves a filter than can be re-used, but the guy doing 3000 miles changes will probally have ard/ocd so bad he can't leave the old filter on.
Shure, draining the oil at 3000 miles leaves a filter than can be re-used, but the guy doing 3000 miles changes will probally have ard/ocd so bad he can't leave the old filter on.
Originally Posted By: Auto-Union
the guy doing 3000 miles changes will probally have ard/ocd so bad he can't leave the old filter on.
Heh...you just described ME!
...except that I do 5,000-mile OCIs on all my cars, but I still can't bring myself to leave the filter on for 2 changes even though I use Motorcraft, which should be good for it.
the guy doing 3000 miles changes will probally have ard/ocd so bad he can't leave the old filter on.
Heh...you just described ME!
...except that I do 5,000-mile OCIs on all my cars, but I still can't bring myself to leave the filter on for 2 changes even though I use Motorcraft, which should be good for it.
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In our scale of usage ..any old filter (probably) has the same life span. If you're doing 12k a year ..and doing 3k OCI ..then sure ..you can probably use any filter for the year. You're so out of whack on the oil dumping that you're starting out with a fresh sump way too often. Now the cheaper filter will probably have a lame ADBV )if so fitted) shortly after your first OCI ..but
OTOH, if you're doing 3k OCIs because you only do 6k a year ...then that's a different story. Those aren't short OCIs under most circumstances.
OTOH, if you're doing 3k OCIs because you only do 6k a year ...then that's a different story. Those aren't short OCIs under most circumstances.
Gary--would you have any problem with total annual mileage of 15,000-20,000 miles on the same filter (Wix, Bosch or PureOne)with 3,000-4,000 mile OCI's?
I don't recall exactly what I spend on filters, but it seems like I usually get Purolators at Pep Boys on sale for about $1 each. At that price, why not change the filter when you change the oil?
On a related note, when people do extended OCIs, do they typically spin filters at the same frequency, or more often?
On a related note, when people do extended OCIs, do they typically spin filters at the same frequency, or more often?
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Quote:
Gary--would you have any problem with total annual mileage of 15,000-20,000 miles on the same filter (Wix, Bosch or PureOne)with 3,000-4,000 mile OCI's?
No ..no problem at all. I would go with an EaO, M1, or PureOne for that duration. You've got to be in the sweet spot of byproduct production a good bit of the time.
Quote:
At that price, why not change the filter when you change the oil?
If you're also doing shorter OCI's because you have to, sure. If you're just dumping oil because you can't help it (feel that you're doing your engine a favor) ..then go upscale to a better filter and change it every other time.
Here's the funny quirk we have in our behaviors. Many resist extended drains because they think that they're treating their engine the best they know how doing 3k/3m. Yet go cheap on the filter. I don't see how you divorce the two. I mean I CAN see it since I can see the sense of it by the lack of sump accumulations. I see it from the economics of it in regard to filtration. Those who do short OCIs somehow see the "it's cheap insurance" to buy up to 3X the amount of oil that they have to ...but buy a $1 filter as part of that same insurance package.
What I'm saying is, in case I didn't express that well, that you'll pay more than you have to out of a "feeling" ..yet a tightwad grabs you when it comes to the filter ..yet you'll resist getting your money's worth out of a more expensive filter ....but refuse to get your money's worth out of your oil
It just doesn't add up for me
Gary--would you have any problem with total annual mileage of 15,000-20,000 miles on the same filter (Wix, Bosch or PureOne)with 3,000-4,000 mile OCI's?
No ..no problem at all. I would go with an EaO, M1, or PureOne for that duration. You've got to be in the sweet spot of byproduct production a good bit of the time.
Quote:
At that price, why not change the filter when you change the oil?
If you're also doing shorter OCI's because you have to, sure. If you're just dumping oil because you can't help it (feel that you're doing your engine a favor) ..then go upscale to a better filter and change it every other time.
Here's the funny quirk we have in our behaviors. Many resist extended drains because they think that they're treating their engine the best they know how doing 3k/3m. Yet go cheap on the filter. I don't see how you divorce the two. I mean I CAN see it since I can see the sense of it by the lack of sump accumulations. I see it from the economics of it in regard to filtration. Those who do short OCIs somehow see the "it's cheap insurance" to buy up to 3X the amount of oil that they have to ...but buy a $1 filter as part of that same insurance package.
What I'm saying is, in case I didn't express that well, that you'll pay more than you have to out of a "feeling" ..yet a tightwad grabs you when it comes to the filter ..yet you'll resist getting your money's worth out of a more expensive filter ....but refuse to get your money's worth out of your oil
It just doesn't add up for me
I think a better filter used twice (total service = 10k) is better than 2 new cheap filters at 5k each. Honestly a TG or P1 with decent oil, two 5k intervals on the one filter is a great service.
Gary--is there a reason you didn't include Wix in the list of filters suitable for 12 month replacement intervals or was it just an oversight? I really like the construction quality of Wix and consider them at least equal to PureOne and Mobil 1 in that aspect. Thanks!
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