Oil Filter Internal Views

RealWing · Jun 13, 2003

mrchecker

My curiosity over-rode my bank account!!!

Some of you have asked me to cut open more filters. I dont plan on cutting open any more in the immediate future. After spending $168.00 (US) for the cutting tool and the cost of each new filter - I think it is time to stop for a bit before my wife finds out where the money is going!!!
I'm going to Carlisle PA in July to a Chrysler Meet and may pick up one or 2 US made filters and cut them open.

Mystic · Jun 13, 2003

Outstanding photography, RealWing. A lot of people probably do not know how difficult it can be to photograph stuff like oil filters, etc., and get the level of color accuracy and detail that you achieved.

YZF150 · Jun 13, 2003

Let me add my voice to the chorus: Well done, Sir.

In addition, you've reconfirmed my personal choice of K&N.

Patman · Jun 13, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by labman:

I want to assure Patman that the AC's are pretty good. If I could
find the ones I need for $3-4, I wouldn't consider anything else.
The PF 1177 I cut open had about half again the filter area of
anything else and over 3 times last place Fram. See all my data
back on "Best oil filter for under $6".

Keep in mind that the US made AC Delco and the Canadian made ones are completely different. I don't think they are similar in any way at all. Rumor has it that the AC Delcos in Canada are identical to the NAPA Golds, but without the silicone ADBV. AC Delcos up here are made by Dana, while in the US, it's a totally different supplier.

RealWing · Jun 13, 2003

Thanks for all the positive feedback guys. makes it all worthwhile!!!

My only concern about K&N is their filtering efficiency. They advertize 90% and do not reference the SAE test protocol - So I cant tell if this is comparable to other filters that use the SAE test or not. 90% is a little lower than the best filters which are 95%+ efficient. The 2 SAE tests are: (HS806)single pass efficiency and (J1858) multi-pass efficiency. Yes - K&N flows very well (as do their air filters), but is more flow coming at the expense of less filtration efficiency??? I'm just not sure.

Mystic · Jun 13, 2003

RealWing, I have used both Amsoil and K&N oil filters, and I like both of them. Hard to say which is better. But you are the guy that had a problem with an Amsoil oil filter, are you not? I would guess that was just a problem with one oil filter. I think it is possible to try to filter too well with a full flow oil filter. I personally do not like the Purolator PureOne oil filter because at start-up my engine seems to run rougher as compared to the Purolator Premium Plus.

Judging from these photographs, I would say that some of the best constructed oil filters are K&N, Amsoil, and the Wix (NAPA Gold, CarQuest Premium). The Bosch is interesting also because it seems to have good sealing. Maybe the Bosch or the Wix would make good fairly low cost oil filters and the Amsoil and K&N would be better as more expensive oil filters. Some people do not believe that the Mobil 1 is as good as the Amsoil and the K&N because there appears to be more restriction of oil flow. Another thing I like about the K&N is that nut at the top that makes installation and removal easier.

What I would really like to see, even though it will probably never happen, is for car manufacturers to make their own quality oil filters. After all, the car designer knows at what pressure the adbv should open, etc.

And another thing I want to know, is why there seems to be a difference between the oil filter installed at the factory and replacement oil filters. Seems to me that you should be able to buy the same oil filter that is installed at the factory. What do you say?

Mike_dup1 · Jun 13, 2003

I have a long time friend who is a parts manager at a Chevy/Olds/Caddy dealership. He told me many years ago that the AC Delco filters he sold were better than the AC Delco filters K-Mart sold. He said, the after marker filters were made by another company for AC Delco whereas the GM dealer parts were made by a GM subsidiary, Delphi and been mentioned here in the past.

Mike
1992 Chevy Silverado K2500 SWB (plow/fishing )truck
2001 GMC Sierra Ext Cab SLT Z71 winter driver)
2002 Firebird Trans AM WS6 #3124

Mystic · Jun 14, 2003

Mike, I guess that would explain how K-Mart was able to sell AC-Delco at such a lower cost. But now it seems about all there is in most stores is FRAM. In many auto parts stores all I see is FRAM, Purolator, K&N at Checker Auto Parts Stores, and that is pretty much it. There is currently one store in town that sells Wix (they used to sell Baldwin), one store that sells Hastings, and no Amsoil dealers anywhere close that I am aware of. Of course you can get Wix (NAPA Gold, CarQuest Premium) at NAPA and CarQuest Stores.

A guy said in a post here a while back that whenever he examines cars and trucks, about 70% of the time the oil filter will be a FRAM. Well, no wonder. Typical person walks into a Checker and all they see is FRAM and more expensive K&N. They will probably walk out of the store with a FRAM. Person walks into an AutoZone, they will probably walk out with either a FRAM or a Purolator.

And on new cars, trucks, vans and SUVs, you don't know what you are getting. The oil filter could be a FRAM or a Purolator with a different paint job.

RealWing · Jun 14, 2003

Patman
In regards to your comment:
"I don't think filtering efficiency is that big of a deal. Everyone thinks that by getting out all the 10 micron particles they are preventing engine wear, but honestly, most of those small particles just float around harmlessly anyways."

The SAE HS806 test uses 10-20 micron sized particles. Many filters on the market today are only ~75% efficient. ie 25% of the 10-20 micron partices go straight through.
Particles of this size didnt have an adverse effect on older vehicles where bearing clearances were 0.002" (50 micron) to 0.003" (76 micron)(like on my old Mopars).
The main bearing clearances on my 2003 Accord are 0.0007"(17 micron) to 0.0016" (41 micron)and the piston pin to piston clearances are 0.0002"(5 micron) to 0.0006"(15 micron)
I've concluded that filtering efficiency is getting to be more and more important to the longevity of the newer vehicles.

2003 Accord Ex 4 cyl-5speed manual
2003 Acura MDX
1969 Barracuda 340-auto
1970 Superbird 440-6bbl auto

YZF150 · Jun 14, 2003

Right, but as soon as that engine is started at the factory, those clearances start getting bigger. There isn't a lot of compelling evidence from the used oil analysis of a filter model/wear metal correlation. If there is one, it is masked by other variables, including additives, weather/temperature, driving style, drain interval, and base stock.

Until better performance in the oiling system can be demonstrated otherwise, I have concluded that what is best for my vehicle is an oil that holds its grade and TBN, used in conjunction with a filter that flows well, has a bypass valve that tightly seals, and has a lot of surface area in the media.

labman · Jun 14, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
I have a long time friend who is a parts manager at a Chevy/Olds/Caddy dealership. He told me many years ago that the AC Delco filters he sold were better than the AC Delco filters K-Mart sold. He said, the after marker filters were made by another company for AC Delco whereas the GM dealer parts were made by a GM subsidiary, Delphi and been mentioned here in the past.
Could be. Maybe the dealership ones are better. The one I cut up
from K-Maart was better than the well regarded Purolator, Hastings,
and 3 others. I have wondered about that, but don't see AC
cheapening the brand like that. I think it may be part of the reason
they disappeared from Wal-Mart. I think AC didn't like setting on the
shelf next to Fram.

Mike
1992 Chevy Silverado K2500 SWB (plow/fishing )truck
2001 GMC Sierra Ext Cab SLT Z71 winter driver)
2002 Firebird Trans AM WS6 #3124

Patman · Jun 14, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by RealWing:
Thanks for all the positive feedback guys. makes it all worthwhile!!!

My only concern about K&N is their filtering efficiency. They advertize 90% and do not reference the SAE test protocol - So I cant tell if this is comparable to other filters that use the SAE test or not. 90% is a little lower than the best filters which are 95%+ efficient. The 2 SAE tests are: (HS806)single pass efficiency and (J1858) multi-pass efficiency. Yes - K&N flows very well (as do their air filters), but is more flow coming at the expense of less filtration efficiency??? I'm just not sure.

I don't think filtering efficiency is that big of a deal. Everyone thinks that by getting out all the 10 micron particles they are preventing engine wear, but honestly, most of those small particles just float around harmlessly anyways.

Here is my wife's 5000 mile oil analysis report using a K&N oil filter and the old formula Mobil 1 (which everyone agrees is not as good as the newest oils out now) and the wear metals are very low on her car, especially considering her shorter trips.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000265

Patman · Jun 14, 2003

Another factor though, is just how much "stuff" actually ends up in your oil to begin with? If you're using a good oil, and a good air filter, you'll have such a low amount of particles in there, that it almost doesn't matter whether or not you're running a filter at all. So as long as you have something that stops 25 micron particles, I believe that's more than enough. Go for the flow I say!

widman · Jun 14, 2003

Great job. I've cut filters that have one half regular type and one half like the toyota. The Fram construction seems to be the same all over, as the Brazilian Fram I cut (posted on my site)had the same misalignment of the tube with the paper.

G-MAN · Jun 14, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
I have a long time friend who is a parts manager at a Chevy/Olds/Caddy dealership. He told me many years ago that the AC Delco filters he sold were better than the AC Delco filters K-Mart sold. He said, the after marker filters were made by another company for AC Delco whereas the GM dealer parts were made by a GM subsidiary, Delphi and been mentioned here in the past.

Here is a quote from the CaddyInfo web site regarding who makes what when it comes to AC Delco filters. Observation alone by several people who post on bobistheoilguy have shown that both Delphi and Champion AC Delco filters can be found in aftermarket retail stores. This quote by a GM engineer at Cadillac would indicate that Delphi makes the OEM filters installed at the factory. I was particularly interested in his comment about the QUALITY of the Champion made filters versus the Delphi ones.

quote:

News flash: I did talk directly to our oil filter Design/Release Engineer and found that indeed somethings had changed since I was intimately involved with the Northstar oil filter. The OEM PF-58 filters are produced at Delphi in Flint. All the aftermarket PF-58 filters distributed through Service Parts Organization ( SPO ) are manufactured by......Champion Labs...!!!! There are slight differences in construction between the two and the DRE actually considers the Champion Labs filter construction to be slightly more robust and desireable. This was a new one on me?? The DRE did confirm that we have tested and validated the champion Labs PF-58 and that it is our design adapted to their manufacturing process not their filter painted blue/black.

4DSC · Jun 17, 2003

Thank you for posting this RealWing!

I had always wondered about how that Toyota 90915-YZZA2 was constructed on the inside since Maxima drivers have cross-referenced this very filter against the (discontinued) OEM Nissan filter. I'd never seen the inside pleats exposed before and used to guess it was a solid core of some kind.

I bet the superior anti-drainback valve design is the reason why it works better than most non-OEM filters...

kctom · Jun 18, 2003

I notice the there is quite an indentation on the top of the Fram filter element. Seems like a good seal is formed somehow. Pressing metal to cardboard is the tried and true method of forming a good seal.

Now if there is pressure on the top of the filter element then there must be pressure on the rubber seal on the botton also. Again, another good seal.

That relief valve isn't just plasic, it is nylon. Gee, I see a lot of nylon used on devices attached to my engine block. If nylon can take the heat there for many thousands of miles, why can't it take the heat inside an oil filter for just 3000 miles or so.

Tom

Chris B. · Jun 19, 2003

The Napa Gold looks like it has 6 holes per row on the inside support and the K&N has 5 per row. Both these filters are probibly the best on the market from what I have seen. I wish I could find K&N localy but I feel very confindent with the Napa Gold!
Thanks for going to all the trouble to post this great stuff RealWing!

Mystic · Jun 20, 2003

Chris B., I find K&N at Checker Auto Parts Stores. As far as I can see, the only filters the Checker Auto Parts Store near to me carries are FRAM and K&N.

Mystic · Jun 20, 2003

I still think this is one of the best posts ever put on this web site. I only wish a few more filters could be cut apart. The photography was great.

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