Oil Filter Inflow Holes => Flow Rate?

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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3800Series

Not a scientist or even engineer but I would imagine running a smaller/larger can would effect flow rate and possibly raise oil pressure going to the can and lower pressure coming for the can. But that's just from thought to evidice (of my own).


Only if the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

As others have said, the oil inlet holes in the base, and also the holes in the center tube don't add much delta-p. The media is what causes the most pressure drop across an oil filter.

Here's the flow vs delta-p curve for a medium sized PureOne. The delta-p in this curve is across the whole oil filter, which includes the inlet holes in the base and the holes in the center tube.

PureOne Flow vs Delta-P



I did see that thread before snapping those pictures at Walmart, but I don't believe the chart shown a bit. Here is why,

As we know, oil filters have by-pass valves which are set to anywhere from 13psi to 21psi or so. It means that once that pressure is reached little additional pressure can build up. Therefore, the lines on the graph should shoot nearly straight up in that psi range, depending on the filter, i.e. increase in flow with almost no increase in pressure. At the very least there must be a kink in each line at the point where by-pass valve pressure is reached. Nevertheless, graph shows perfectly smooth continuous lines all the way past 45psi. Unless I am really missing something that just doesn't make any sense. And if that's one thing wrong with the graph nothing else can be trusted.

Furthermore, filter parameters vary from model to model. Somewhere I saw an analysis of inflow/outflow areas for a chevy truck filter and inflow area was smaller in Fram compared to Bosch, which is completely opposite to what we had found earlier on this thread for Fram TG6607 vs Bosch 3300.
 
i dont know if there are known issues with this particular filter but personally i would not take a chance its not worth it. purolater has issues and i can't be associated with issues my reputation and engine warrantee is on the line.
 
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3800Series

Not a scientist or even engineer but I would imagine running a smaller/larger can would effect flow rate and possibly raise oil pressure going to the can and lower pressure coming for the can. But that's just from thought to evidice (of my own).


Only if the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

As others have said, the oil inlet holes in the base, and also the holes in the center tube don't add much delta-p. The media is what causes the most pressure drop across an oil filter.

Here's the flow vs delta-p curve for a medium sized PureOne. The delta-p in this curve is across the whole oil filter, which includes the inlet holes in the base and the holes in the center tube.

PureOne Flow vs Delta-P



I did see that thread before snapping those pictures at Walmart, but I don't believe the chart shown a bit. Here is why,

As we know, oil filters have by-pass valves which are set to anywhere from 13psi to 21psi or so. It means that once that pressure is reached little additional pressure can build up. Therefore, the lines on the graph should shoot nearly straight up in that psi range, depending on the filter, i.e. increase in flow with almost no increase in pressure. At the very least there must be a kink in each line at the point where by-pass valve pressure is reached. Nevertheless, graph shows perfectly smooth continuous lines all the way past 45psi. Unless I am really missing something that just doesn't make any sense. And if that's one thing wrong with the graph nothing else can be trusted.


Agree on your comment about the bypass valve opening would change the curve.

But you are missing something ... that filter in the thread I linked doesn't have a bypass valve because the engine it goes on has the bypass valve built into the engine block (typical GM V8 design). That is why the curve is nice and smooth and doesn't knee over like it would if the filter had a bypass valve and opened during the test when the delta-p equaled the bypass valve setting.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3800Series

Not a scientist or even engineer but I would imagine running a smaller/larger can would effect flow rate and possibly raise oil pressure going to the can and lower pressure coming for the can. But that's just from thought to evidice (of my own).


Only if the positive displacement oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

As others have said, the oil inlet holes in the base, and also the holes in the center tube don't add much delta-p. The media is what causes the most pressure drop across an oil filter.

Here's the flow vs delta-p curve for a medium sized PureOne. The delta-p in this curve is across the whole oil filter, which includes the inlet holes in the base and the holes in the center tube.

PureOne Flow vs Delta-P



I did see that thread before snapping those pictures at Walmart, but I don't believe the chart shown a bit. Here is why,

As we know, oil filters have by-pass valves which are set to anywhere from 13psi to 21psi or so. It means that once that pressure is reached little additional pressure can build up. Therefore, the lines on the graph should shoot nearly straight up in that psi range, depending on the filter, i.e. increase in flow with almost no increase in pressure. At the very least there must be a kink in each line at the point where by-pass valve pressure is reached. Nevertheless, graph shows perfectly smooth continuous lines all the way past 45psi. Unless I am really missing something that just doesn't make any sense. And if that's one thing wrong with the graph nothing else can be trusted.


Agree on your comment about the bypass valve opening would change the curve.

But you are missing something ... that filter in the thread I linked doesn't have a bypass valve because the engine it goes on has the bypass valve built into the engine block (typical GM V8 design). That is why the curve is nice and smooth and doesn't knee over like it would if the filter had a bypass valve and opened during the test when the delta-p equaled the bypass valve setting.


Aha! That's where I went wrong. Great point. I'll just replace the Fram TG6607 I've just installed with the Fram UltraGuard 6607 (Ultra Synthetic I believe it's called now) this weekend and call it square. Otherwise, I'll not be able to stop thinking about it.
 
The oil flow though those two filters will be the same. Engine oil pumps are almost always fixed displacement pumps and the flow of oil is directly proportional to the engine speed. If one filter has a higher resistance than the other, then the oil pump will simply output a higher pressure to maintain a constant volume of oil that for a given engine speed.
 
Originally Posted By: hofcat
The oil flow though those two filters will be the same. Engine oil pumps are almost always fixed displacement pumps and the flow of oil is directly proportional to the engine speed. If one filter has a higher resistance than the other, then the oil pump will simply output a higher pressure to maintain a constant volume of oil that for a given engine speed.



Until the pump starts to go into bypass. Which on a gm ls engine for example is around 12 psi for stock pump and spring.
 
The filter media is the flow restriction in the filter, the oil passages in the engine block are the total flow restriction, look at the outlet size of the pump and know that it feeds the entire motor. My guess is that it isn't bigger than the outlet of the filter/filter mount.
 
Originally Posted By: ironman_gq
The filter media is the flow restriction in the filter, the oil passages in the engine block are the total flow restriction, look at the outlet size of the pump and know that it feeds the entire motor. My guess is that it isn't bigger than the outlet of the filter/filter mount.

This. As said now by several knowledgeable posters, inlet hole size would have no significant effect on flow. The engine internals would offer far more restriction. And also as said the media would be the restriction in the filter, but even that insignificant as compared to the engine itself.

As a practical example, Wix changed the 51356 to the 57356 for Honda and other pc applications to get better thread engagement and gasket seal. In doing so the inlet hole size was reduced. As the links show the 51356 has larger inlet holes than the newer 57356. Have the latter currently installed on a Honda and it's working fine. I trust that Wix engineered it properly, tested it and it's flow is more than sufficient.
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51356
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=57356
 
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: hofcat
The oil flow though those two filters will be the same. Engine oil pumps are almost always fixed displacement pumps and the flow of oil is directly proportional to the engine speed. If one filter has a higher resistance than the other, then the oil pump will simply output a higher pressure to maintain a constant volume of oil that for a given engine speed.


Until the pump starts to go into bypass. Which on a gm ls engine for example is around 12 psi for stock pump and spring.


The filter bypass valve has nothing to do with the oil pump pressure relief valve, which is maybe what you were thinking of (?).

The GM V8 oil pumps don't go into pressure relief until about 80 psi on the output side of the oil pump. 12 psi is the oil filter bypass pressure setting.
 
Thinking about this more during the day I've decided to stick with TG6607, at least for this OCI. Replacing it with XG6607 or any other filter for that matter at this point (right after just installing it) would imply I know better than the engineers who designed the filter, which is definitely not the case. There is just no evidence specific to TG6607 indicating that the flow will be insufficient for the engine it's designed and officially specified for. It will be interesting to see a UOA at the end of the OCI.

Thank you again for all your input. Here it is installed. A little bit of oil at the bottom came out after I torqued the filter to 13 ft-lbs in accordance with specifications after oiling the o-ring before screwing it on. It's not a seepage.

5hJOrkh.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: davison0976
There is just no evidence specific to TG6607 indicating that the flow will be insufficient for the engine it's designed and officially specified for. It will be interesting to see a UOA at the end of the OCI.


Have you seen how small the oil filters are for the Subarus? Some of those turboed versions put out more oil pump volume than anything else on the road. So that is a case where a very small oil filter is specified for a super high output oil pump. Seems to be no problems in that case, so you should be many factors beyond "good to go".
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: davison0976
There is just no evidence specific to TG6607 indicating that the flow will be insufficient for the engine it's designed and officially specified for. It will be interesting to see a UOA at the end of the OCI.


Have you seen how small the oil filters are for the Subarus? Some of those turboed versions put out more oil pump volume than anything else on the road. So that is a case where a very small oil filter is specified for a super high output oil pump. Seems to be no problems in that case, so you should be many factors beyond "good to go".


Thank you for reaffirming. That's what I figured.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: hofcat
The oil flow though those two filters will be the same. Engine oil pumps are almost always fixed displacement pumps and the flow of oil is directly proportional to the engine speed. If one filter has a higher resistance than the other, then the oil pump will simply output a higher pressure to maintain a constant volume of oil that for a given engine speed.

I
Until the pump starts to go into bypass. Which on a gm ls engine for example is around 12 psi for stock pump and spring.


The filter bypass valve has nothing to do with the oil pump pressure relief valve, which is maybe what you were thinking of (?).

The GM V8 oil pumps don't go into pressure relief until about 80 psi on the output side of the oil pump. 12 psi is the oil filter bypass pressure setting.


No. A GM LS stock pump and spring starts to go into bypass, that is the spring starts to open, at about 12 psi. It is in full bypass at about 62 psi.

The oil filter bypas, or pressure differential, is different and @ about 12 psi as wellfor the LS for example.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: hofcat
The oil flow though those two filters will be the same. Engine oil pumps are almost always fixed displacement pumps and the flow of oil is directly proportional to the engine speed. If one filter has a higher resistance than the other, then the oil pump will simply output a higher pressure to maintain a constant volume of oil that for a given engine speed.

I
Until the pump starts to go into bypass. Which on a gm ls engine for example is around 12 psi for stock pump and spring.


The filter bypass valve has nothing to do with the oil pump pressure relief valve, which is maybe what you were thinking of (?).

The GM V8 oil pumps don't go into pressure relief until about 80 psi on the output side of the oil pump. 12 psi is the oil filter bypass pressure setting.


No. A GM LS stock pump and spring starts to go into bypass, that is the spring starts to open, at about 12 psi. It is in full bypass at about 62 psi.

The oil filter bypas, or pressure differential, is different and @ about 12 psi as wellfor the LS for example.


The GM LS oil pump does not go into pressure relief at 12 psi, and if the oil pump pressure relief was in "full bypass at about 62 psi", then why do I see ~75 psi at near redline? ... and that is oil pressure after the oil filter.

Oil pump pressure relief and oil filter bypass are two independent operations.
 
The stock ls pump bypass does start to open at around 12 psi and is fully open around 62psi. It is a spring so it doesn't just open and close fully at some preset psi. It must work this way to handle dynamic chamges in oil pressure.

My 04 below exceeds the bypass psi by a little bit as well sometimes when it is cold as well.

I'm glad you realize that the oil pump bypass and filter bypass(approx 12 psi as well) are different.
 
Originally Posted By: 3311
I'm glad you realize that the oil pump bypass and filter bypass(approx 12 psi as well) are different.


LOL ... I've said that all along. Again, how can I see 75 psi of oil pressure if the pressure relief valve is open all the way at 62 psi as you claim?
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 3311
I'm glad you realize that the oil pump bypass and filter bypass(approx 12 psi as well) are different.


LOL ... I've said that all along. Again, how can I see 75 psi of oil pressure if the pressure relief valve is open all the way at 62 psi as you claim?


Cold oil, high rpms, pump outputting more than can be bypassed etc... The gearator pump does not by pass back to the pan, it bypasses within the pump which may be a reason.

It has been in the 40's here in Fl the last two mornings and both days I was well over 60 psi hile pulling into traffic with my 04 below.

Artic temps down here, brrrrrrr. Thank goodness we are warming up today.
smile.gif
 
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