Oil Filter Experiment: Nissan Micra K12

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
No big deal ... I didn't take it in any negative way. It would have been cool though to see someone do this experiment with some kind of way to determine what the actual effect was on engine internal cleanliness and wear.


In order for such a test to be meaningful it would require laboratory conditions, not out on the street. The number, composition, size and geometry of the "wear particles" in the oil would have to be tightly controlled. This isn't going to happen on the street. Operating conditions for a vehicle in Lancashire on Tuesday afternoon during a dry spell aren't going to be the same as Lancashire a week later during rain. They won't be the same if one brand of air filter is used over another. What gets into the oil and how it gets there is the most crucial part of such an experiment and that cannot be controlled outside of a laboratory. Without such control any "results" would be meaningless no matter how you obtain those results.

The effect is just the end. By what process the effect is obtained is of primary importance.


Yep, and that's why there have been many controlled laboratory tests conducted to correlate engine wear with particle size. All the papers I've seen say cleaner oil means less wear - no big surprise.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
No big deal ... I didn't take it in any negative way. It would have been cool though to see someone do this experiment with some kind of way to determine what the actual effect was on engine internal cleanliness and wear.


In order for such a test to be meaningful it would require laboratory conditions, not out on the street. The number, composition, size and geometry of the "wear particles" in the oil would have to be tightly controlled. This isn't going to happen on the street. Operating conditions for a vehicle in Lancashire on Tuesday afternoon during a dry spell aren't going to be the same as Lancashire a week later during rain. They won't be the same if one brand of air filter is used over another. What gets into the oil and how it gets there is the most crucial part of such an experiment and that cannot be controlled outside of a laboratory. Without such control any "results" would be meaningless no matter how you obtain those results.

The effect is just the end. By what process the effect is obtained is of primary importance.


Yep, and that's why there have been many controlled laboratory tests conducted to correlate engine wear with particle size. All the papers I've seen say cleaner oil means less wear - no big surprise.


I've also seen it frequently alleged that there is a cut-off, related to the bearing clearances, below which wear particles don't contribute to further wear. Don't remember seeing any evidence for it though.

 

[circuitsmith]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I've also seen it frequently alleged that there is a cut-off, related to the bearing clearances, below which wear particles don't contribute to further wear. Don't remember seeing any evidence for it though.

I suspect there's no cutoff for cam lobes, lifters, piston rings etc., where there's no fixed clearance.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I've also seen it frequently alleged that there is a cut-off, related to the bearing clearances, below which wear particles don't contribute to further wear. Don't remember seeing any evidence for it though.


The bearing setup clearance isn't the major factor ... it's the minimum oil film thickness (MOFT) during running loads, which can be as small as 5~10 microns.

 

[Donald64]

It was my birthday yesterday, so I have been 'away' from this forum so to speak
Because of my health issues that I outlined at the start, this sprung to my foggy mind:
When my Citroen garage business closed in 2001, I kept a few select customers. One of them - a lovely man - ran a 2007 Citroen Xsara Picasso with a 1.6 HDi diesel engine fitted. It's an SUV and he bought it from new. I have worked on his cars for 28 years.
He suffered two major family tragedies and that is the reason for this unusual example of mechanical neglect:
At 9,000 miles, I did his first away from main dealership service which obviously included an oil/filter change.
Then that was it. He just kept the oil topped up and ran, and ran it. This included all the way to Madrid (from northern England) on many occasions.
From previous experience, I believe that the filter paper would have certainly deteriorated (torn/holed) by the 20,000ish mile mark.
At 87,000 miles (really), he suffered turbocharger failure whilst 300 miles from home. A
Citroen main dealership changed the turbo unit and on his bill was a handwritten message saying that he had to check oil level daily and do another oil change in 3,000 miles.
Anyway, many of you will guess what happens next...
The new $1800 turbocharger failed at just 500 miles after fitment.
The next bill was for around the $6,000 mark. It was for a full engine strip to 'chemically' (? another Citroen dealership) clean the oilways.
He fought and won a claim against the original garage. They didn't find the cause - blocked oilways. They treated the symptom and not the cause. That's what makes automobile repair so fascinating, isn't it?
Whether this was right or wrong doesn't really matter.
The reason for this latest bit of the already too long post is:
1. The Citroen 1.6 HDi engine is a high-output turbodiesel. So a very modern almost-watch-like engine which suffered an exceptional level of abuse can last an amazingly long time before failure.
2. The answer to my own question was, in a way, already in my head.
So if you any of you guys have middle-aged signs of poor memory, weight gain, lack of manliness and night sweats, please consider seeing an endocrinologist
3. Not at all relevant, if you're every working late into the evening fixing your wheels, at the very first 'mistake' that you encounter, call it a day. This tip took me twenty years to learn. Keep safe

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: redbone3
VW Beetle did this experiment for years and with millions of cars.


Using 2500~3000 mile oil changes on non-synthetic oil. Most of those old air cooled VW engines were lucky to make it to
80K miles before pretty worn.


In fairness most engines of that era were lucky to make 80k miles even with oil filters.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: Donald64
It was my birthday yesterday, so I have been 'away' from this forum so to speak
Because of my health issues that I outlined at the start, this sprung to my foggy mind:
When my Citroen garage business closed in 2001, I kept a few select customers. One of them - a lovely man - ran a 2007 Citroen Xsara Picasso with a 1.6 HDi diesel engine fitted. It's an SUV and he bought it from new. I have worked on his cars for 28 years.
He suffered two major family tragedies and that is the reason for this unusual example of mechanical neglect:
At 9,000 miles, I did his first away from main dealership service which obviously included an oil/filter change.
Then that was it. He just kept the oil topped up and ran, and ran it. This included all the way to Madrid (from northern England) on many occasions.
From previous experience, I believe that the filter paper would have certainly deteriorated (torn/holed) by the 20,000ish mile mark.
At 87,000 miles (really), he suffered turbocharger failure whilst 300 miles from home. A
Citroen main dealership changed the turbo unit and on his bill was a handwritten message saying that he had to check oil level daily and do another oil change in 3,000 miles.
Anyway, many of you will guess what happens next...
The new $1800 turbocharger failed at just 500 miles after fitment.
The next bill was for around the $6,000 mark. It was for a full engine strip to 'chemically' (? another Citroen dealership) clean the oilways.
He fought and won a claim against the original garage. They didn't find the cause - blocked oilways. They treated the symptom and not the cause. That's what makes automobile repair so fascinating, isn't it?
Whether this was right or wrong doesn't really matter.
The reason for this latest bit of the already too long post is:
1. The Citroen 1.6 HDi engine is a high-output turbodiesel. So a very modern almost-watch-like engine which suffered an exceptional level of abuse can last an amazingly long time before failure.
2. The answer to my own question was, in a way, already in my head.
So if you any of you guys have middle-aged signs of poor memory, weight gain, lack of manliness and night sweats, please consider seeing an endocrinologist
3. Not at all relevant, if you're every working late into the evening fixing your wheels, at the very first 'mistake' that you encounter, call it a day. This tip took me twenty years to learn. Keep safe

That is strange.

Because the 1.6HDi engine, just like the 1.6 TDCi, is widely regarded as a hand grenade even when given regular maintenance.

In fact it had so many issues with oil feed to the turbo that you can't get a Warranty on a replacement Turbo unless you renew all of the oil feed pipes for the Turbo.

 

[bigjl]

Are you sure it was a 1.5 diesel? I thought the smallest Nissan/Datsun diesel was the 4 cylinder 1.7?

And the Company that makes those petrol engines is Aichi Machine Industry.

They were originally an aircraft manufacturer amd after WW2 they moved into cars. Those tiny Kei cars. They also built several Nissan/Datsun models and transmissions including the onenin the Nissan GT-R

They are part of Nissan but I don't know when they became part of the group.