oil consumption problem in a 2000 honda prelude type SH

[Gary Allan]

I've got a question!!! If it's been asked in this LONG thread, I apologize

Does this engine use a quart every 1000-1500 miles "right off the bat"? That is, you change the oil, the filter....and 1000-1500 later ..you have to add a quart.

..or...

Is there a fatigue issue here after a couple of thousand miles?? That is, no consumption for the first 2500 miles after a fresh change ..and THEN a quart every 1000-1500 miles?

Just curious

I just remeber that my Caravan (3.0 Misubishi) when I cared about consumption would have NO CONSUMPTION for the first 3000 miles regardless of what I used (either dino or Mobil 1). Then like clockwork ..the thing would routinely consume oil at about a quart per 1000 miles (+/-).

[ September 23, 2003, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Quick_lude]

I'm not sure if I agree that the H22a "should" burn oil as per design, frm, VTEC, etc. If that was the case then every engine would burn a lot but that is not true. Our Prelude club has over 200 members and oil consumption varies from car to car. There are some people, especially with later model cars from 00-01 that don't burn a lot. The rumour was/is that for the earlier models Honda had two different piston ring suppliers for the H22a. One of them caused huge burning issues. I still disagree that 1L/1000km is considered "normal", that's absurd imo. That's just a number that Honda NA put out so they wouldn't have to provide new shortblocks.. ergo they raised the burning limit to 1.5L/1000km..

The few members that did get a new shortblock report no burning issues whatsoever.. surprise, surprise.. I know many people with other VTEC engines that don't burn nearly as much oil, if at all and I don't see why the H22a should burn so much.

As for the argument against using a higher grade than what Honda recommends, a 40 weight in this case, what do you think is recommended in Europe and other parts of the world for this engine? Surprise! A 5w/10w-40. So imo it's perfectly safe and probably recommended to use a 40w as long as the climate permits it. Like I said above, M1 0w40 cut my consumption in half and I do drive my car hard, especially during lapping days.

 

[HondaRD]

I have acess to various honda/acura vehicles, specifically 3-preludes with the H22A motor, 1-DelSol with the b16a motor, and 1-Integra with the B18C motor. All are VTEC, dual overhead cam engines, and all of them exhibit oil burning behavior. The H22A is the worst out of the bunch, no matter if it is a 1993, 1997, or 2000 model. While it was impossible for me to make sure proper break in was followed on each, I do feel that these engines (not the SOHC VTEC motors) will consume oil by design. If VTEC is not enganged very much, oil consumption is practically zero, but that's no fun.
I have tried using Mobil 1 with varying weights (5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-40) and all exhibit the same behavior. Oil level is steady until about 2000 miles, then by 3500 miles, a quart has disappeared. I have not tried any other synthetic, so I cannot really compared different brands. In the preludes, Mobil drive clean would burn off at a similar rate as mobil 1. Castrol GTX seemed to do a little better but would eventually burn off a quart by the end of the interval. The Integra is no different, I've managed to burn about 1/2 quart of Pennzoil 10W-30 in 2,500 miles. I am going to try Chevron next, to see how it does. I did try Valvoline Max-Life once mixed with Mobil 1 (3:2 ratio), and the oil level did not move for the whole 3,105 miles it was in there. (I keep track of what oils I use and mileage between changes). Because of the Max-Life hating that I read here, I never thought of trying Max-Life again.
It seems that oil consumption really becomes noticable when the oil starts to thin out. I also know that VTEC engines have oil squirters beneath the pistons to aid in combustion cooling, but I do not know enough about it to say if this is a factor. How hot does the piston/combustion chamber get with a minimum compression ratio of 10:1? Hot enough to burn off small amounts of oil? I have been told that the DOHC VTEC engines will comsume oil by design, and that may be partially true (any owners of the latest BMW M3 out there?).
I guess if you are willing to try high-mileage oils, I would give them a try. Or you can try the new GC 0w-30 that just came out. Well, I'm not sure if this helps, but just know that you are not alone.

[ September 23, 2003, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: HondaRD ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sprintman:
Patman if GC is 12.2cSt then it's getting close to a 40W if I'm correct (12.5cSt). What is GC at 40c pls?

---

It's viscosity at 40c is 67.6cst.

It's very close to being a 0w40 oil, you're right, just 0.3cst more and it would be.

 

[Quick_lude]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cvl:
The only other post of burning oil in a VTEC was posted by a guy who didn't follow the recommended schedule on either engine. Go figure.

The factory fill is special and should be left in for at least 5000 miles to help insure proper seating of the rings.

---

Do you mean recommended break in schedule or recommended oil change schedule after the break in? I broke in my car properly and it used a litre of oil by the time I hit 6,000km and was due for the first oil change. H22a's burn oil during VTEC, plain and simple. They also usually do it in the manner that HondaRD described, no usage for the first 3,000 kms and then gulp.

Like I stated above, in my case switching from 5w30 trisyn to 0w40 supersyn cut my usage in half. Not sure if that was due to the change in formulation or viscosity, probably a combination of both.

I will be trying the German GC 0w30 in the next couple of intervals for sh!ts and giggles, it will be interesting how it performs in my engine.

[ September 23, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Quick_lude ]

 

[cvl]

Break-in schedule. The new K-series engines actually burn a bit during the break-in (some even up to 10,000 miles), but then greatly reduce the oil consumption after that. The engines just take a long time to break-in. It's also easy to see this from the dyno sheets that shows the engines getting stronger up to 10,000 miles.

 

[james168]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I've got a question!!! If it's been asked in this LONG thread, I apologize

Does this engine use a quart every 1000-1500 miles "right off the bat"? That is, you change the oil, the filter....and 1000-1500 later ..you have to add a quart.

..or...

Is there a fatigue issue here after a couple of thousand miles?? That is, no consumption for the first 2500 miles after a fresh change ..and THEN a quart every 1000-1500 miles?

---

Thanks for asking. It consumes a quart of M1 every 1000-1500 miles "right off the bat" as you described. Like a few members mentioned, maybe its the nature of the engine to consume oil.

 

[james168]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HondaRD:
I guess if you are willing to try high-mileage oils, I would give them a try. Or you can try the new GC 0w-30 that just came out. Well, I'm not sure if this helps, but just know that you are not alone.

---

Thanks for the kind words. As long as the engine runs fine (and it does), this oil consumption problem I can deal with. But down the road, I will experiment with the different oils suggested by various members of this board. Hopefully by then, I can report good results

 

[userfriendly]

S2000Driver;
I liked your posts throughout this thread.
You seem like a hands-on type of person.
I wouldn't sweat a little oil consumption in a high performance car either.
Does the engine have forged pistons and a very hard cylinder liner?
I'd bet the examples of very high oil consumption come from the owners that babied their engines during the break-in period.
For those of you that did just that, you could try the followiing: Put in straight SAE 30 engine oil that meets DD 149 series 2-stroke diesel engines that is not friction modified.
Then go out and drive the car like you stole it.
What do the oil temperatures run at on these engines s2000? Could an SAE 40 be used if the driver is careful during warm-up?

What do all of you others that responded to this topic think of the following?:
The true esters, and those in the PAO engine oils may cause excessive oil consumption in this type of engine due to their ring wetting properties????
The VI improvers in mineral multi-grades reduce ring seal because of their temporary shear properties?
The very light group III base oils in those "synthetics" are also wrong for this engine?

A high VI group 2+ mono-grade may be the cure for oil consumption in these engines??

Since these engines consume oil, then an engine oil with a moderate additive package should be used to protect the emission control devices including the cat-con???
Because the additive package is being replenished constantly with new engine oil, a robust additive package intended for extended drain intervals is not needed??
An engine oil intended for use in an engine that has very hard cylinder liner material should not be friction modified??
I need help with those questions guys.

[ September 24, 2003, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]

 

[S2000driver]

The pistons are skirtless forged aluminum.

I do not know about the hardness value of the cylinder liner matrix material, but I expect it is relatively harder than iron. "The fiber reinforced metal (FRM) is a composite of carbon fibers that are embedded in aluminum oxide ceramic (the same stuff that is used for the insulator in spark plugs) for low weight, faster heat transfer, and longer wear."

(The conrods are carburized forged steel, the rocker arms are sintered steel, the cams are hollow for valvetrain lubrication, the cam followers have roller-bearings, the car uses a auto-tensioned multi-link "silent" timing chain to a central gear that runs the DOHCams with scissors gear action.)

I had a very "thoughtful" break-in, where I didn't drive highway and varied my speed/throttle on winding back roads as much as possible

I didn't exceed 6000 RPM until after the 600 mile prohibition (per the owner's manual), then I gradually gave it more revs until about 1000 miles. I didn't switch to synthetic until 10,000 miles.

Hope that answers some of your Qs!

Sorry, I have no idea about the oil temps (no gage). But there is an oil-water heat exchanger built into the oil filter base.

quote:

---

Originally posted by userfriendly:
S2000Driver;
Does the engine have forged pistons and a very hard cylinder liner?
I'd bet the examples of very high oil consumption come from the owners that babied their engines during the break-in period.
For those of you that did just that, you could try the followiing: Put in straight SAE 30 engine oil that meets DD 149 series 2-stroke diesel engines that is not friction modified.
Then go out and drive the car like you stole it.
What do the oil temperatures run at on these engines s2000? Could an SAE 40 be used if the driver is careful during warm-up?

---

[ September 24, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: S2000driver ]

 

[userfriendly]

S2000driver;
The reason I asked about the cylinder material is because piston aircraft engines have a heck of a time seating the rings on chrome bores.
The oil generally used for break-in on these engines is un-compounded mono-grades.
There is a fine lubrication line on these engines between seating the rings and wiping out the camshafts.
Quite often the engines are broken-in at the re-build plant by driving a prop behind a cage under an 80% load.
They could sell tickets to engine noise lovers for the event, especially for a turbo Contenantal.
From your post, it sounds like the Honda's valvetrain is well lubricated with positive oiling to the rockers, lifters and cam.
I know that you have not agreed with the others, but are you sure the little rocker couldn't make do with a good SAE 30, 40, or 20W50 dino, or an xxW50 synthetic?
What do you think of the new Honda "Dart" block?

 

[Primus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HondaRD:
I have acess to various honda/acura vehicles, specifically 3-preludes with the H22A motor, 1-DelSol with the b16a motor, and 1-Integra with the B18C motor. All are VTEC, dual overhead cam engines, and all of them exhibit oil burning behavior. The H22A is the worst out of the bunch, no matter if it is a 1993, 1997, or 2000 model. While it was impossible for me to make sure proper break in was followed on each, I do feel that these engines (not the SOHC VTEC motors) will consume oil by design. If VTEC is not enganged very much, oil consumption is practically zero, but that's no fun.

---

HondaRD,
Sorry, but I cannot agree that VTEC engines are all oil burners. I have Prelude 2.2 VTEC (H22A2) of 1996 purchased in Germany in 2000 with 114K km, now 168K km. First owner used Aral High Tronic 5W-40 (9.5-12K km oil change interval). I used Motul 300V 15W-50 and 10W-40, 8100 0W-40, 6100 5W-40. The previous oil change tried to check how the engine would work on N.A. synthetic oil and put 76 Nascar Synthetic 10W-30 (expressly took API SJ that I had considered better then API SL where Esters disappeared, now both are discontinued). I have not noticed some difference in oil consumption during each 6K km interval: 150-200 ml irrespective of oil grade or brand, just always black. The car is mainly used for the long journeys (80 %) of 650-1800 km where the speed is roughly:
15 % 60- 90 km/h
30 % 100-130
40 % 140-160
10 % 170-180
5 % 190-200

James168,
Have you asked Honda (not a dealer) what they think about your issue ? Some OEMs manuals also say about consumption of 1-1.2 l/1000 km or 50-100 ml oil/10 l gas, but this is max consumption (usually not supposed at new or middle age cars) after which it's recommended to make engine repair.

P.S.
Now some readers will laugh: recently I put 76 Pure Synthetic 5W-40 API SJ, ACEA A3/B3, MB 229.1, BMW longlife. And now a joke:

- Armenian Radio is asked whether it's possible to violate a girl at the Central Place of Yerevan.
- Silence, two minutes later: No.
- Why ?
- There will be too many advisers.

 

[S2000driver]

Since I keep track of all oil I add to the S2000, I am able to tell you what I use now, about 0.3 quart every 1000 miles (M1 10W30), down from about 0.6 quart every 1000 miles when the car was new (Dino 10W30). Despite my heavier foot

The other two Hondas I have never required any additional oil to keep up to the full mark 1999 CRV (Dino 5W30) and 2003 Element (M1 0W20). Same for the 7 Hondas I owned before that, even a DOHC VTEC Integra GSR.

 

[Primus]

Checked with Honda people and they confirmed S2000 consumes more oil then all other models due to its specific power. So, its some kind of payment for the performance. A heavier synthetic oil grade would partly solve this issue. 5W-30 synthetic ACEA A3/B3 quality is minimum weight recommended here, it's more often used 5W-40 synthetic or 10W-40 semi-synthetic, both ACEA A3/B3. As I could find Honda Japan also recommends 5W-40 as the first choice for S2000:

http://www.honda.co.jp/parts/hop/oil/next02.html