OEM oil filters

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: skyship


Some 0/20's are not so bad as they stay in grade longer, but the cheaper 5/20's are more suited to use in an Iffy lube along with their 3K next service stickers.




The GF-5/SN requirements are fairly stringent for robustness/drain intervals. This OEM's have pushed hard for this, since "conventional" oils are often pushed to 10K and beyond. The proof is in the UOA's which are on this site. Unless there are some extreme operating conditions or a difficult engine (such as a DI engine w/a ton of fuel dilution), even house-brankd conventional oils have proven suitable for *reasonably* long drains.

You continue to make these factually inaccurate claims about "thin oils and short OCI's". OEM's do not recommend 3K OCI's, and viscosity and drain interval little to no relationship.


My opinion is exactly the same as the expert auto and oil company engineers in Germany and in the UK, although I should point out that using a top quality fully synthetic (As defined in Germany, so not an HC one) 0/20 is better than using a part synthetic as it stays in grade longer. If you compare an 0/20 with a cheap 5/30 that shears down during use there is not much of a difference.
It's unlikely that cars under warranty will suffer engine failures due to the shorter OCI's (5K instead of 15K in some cases), although the oil consumption of some increases to some fairly high figures.
So why use a 20 grade oil and change it at least twice as often as the dealers and paperworks says for the same engine sold in the EU is the big question many non hybrid owners in the US should ask themselves.

 

[FowVay]

Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles. This is simply a fact and is evidenced by the component failure of European brands operated in North America. Domestic vehicles operated here (large class-8 tractors for example) are designed to operate on the fuel while VW TDI's and GM Duramax diesel engines utilizing the Bosch CP4 pumps don't fair quite so well).

Volkswagen and BMW both have shorter drain intervals of their products when operated in North America. BMW won't specify their LL-04 oils for use here (except in their diesel) and VW still recommends their norm 502.00 for gasoline fueled cars instead of their newest 504.00 specification. They do this because the lower SAPS oils don't deal well with the dirt generated by the engines when operated on our fuel.

I learned early in life: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles. This is simply a fact and is evidenced by the component failure of European brands operated in North America. Domestic vehicles operated here (large class-8 tractors for example) are designed to operate on the fuel while VW TDI's and GM Duramax diesel engines utilizing the Bosch CP4 pumps don't fair quite so well).
Volkswagen and BMW both have shorter drain intervals of their products when operated in North America. BMW won't specify their LL-04 oils for use here (except in their diesel) and VW still recommends their norm 502.00 for gasoline fueled cars instead of their newest 504.00 specification. They do this because the lower SAPS oils don't deal well with the dirt generated by the engines when operated on our fuel.

I learned early in life: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".


The poor fuel in the US is a fact you have to live with and I suppose in some cases it does help with a petrol engine to shorten the OCI slightly, but with a diesel changing the oil won't help as the main sinner in fuel contamination terms is Sulphur which causes corrosion at low power settings. Blowby contamination of the oil has little to do with fuel quality and is a non factor for oil life except for a few big block petrol engines. If you use bad fuel it's the fuel filters and even fuel additives that you should pay attention to.
The Romans didn't waste vast amounts of engine oil or reduce the long term life of their chariots with thin or poor quality oils!

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles. This is simply a fact and is evidenced by the component failure of European brands operated in North America. Domestic vehicles operated here (large class-8 tractors for example) are designed to operate on the fuel while VW TDI's and GM Duramax diesel engines utilizing the Bosch CP4 pumps don't fair quite so well).
Volkswagen and BMW both have shorter drain intervals of their products when operated in North America. BMW won't specify their LL-04 oils for use here (except in their diesel) and VW still recommends their norm 502.00 for gasoline fueled cars instead of their newest 504.00 specification. They do this because the lower SAPS oils don't deal well with the dirt generated by the engines when operated on our fuel.

I learned early in life: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".


The poor fuel in the US is a fact you have to live with and I suppose in some cases it does help with a petrol engine to shorten the OCI slightly, but with a diesel changing the oil won't help as the main sinner in fuel contamination terms is Sulphur which causes corrosion at low power settings. Blowby contamination of the oil has little to do with fuel quality and is a non factor for oil life except for a few big block petrol engines. If you use bad fuel it's the fuel filters and even fuel additives that you should pay attention to.
The Romans didn't waste vast amounts of engine oil or reduce the long term life of their chariots with thin or poor quality oils!


I missed out on a few important facts in the last part and one is that Ford and nearly all the other car manufacturers that sell cars in the US have back speced the engine oils to lower grades and in the case of some cheaper manufacturers have not even bothered to approve a sensible oil, just any 5/20.
If you are concerned about fuel quality causing blowby or you spend too much time in traffic or short tripping, to such extent that you get fuel contamination of the oil, the best thing to do is move up a grade from 20 to 30 or 30 to 40, because fuel contamination dilutes the oil and lowers the viscosity. The other good move is to try and get a good session on an empty highway, as it does evaporate from the oil.
With any good engine the fuel contamination figure should be below 0.5% (The normal min UOA reading) and if it's not then there is something amiss with the fuel injection system, although it is worth trying a direct feed fuel injector cleaner before thinking about trying something expensive, like new tips.

 

[Norm Olt]

IMHO, "poor fuel" = 10% ethanol

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: skyship
[

The poor fuel in the US is a fact you have to live with


Define "poor fuel?" Is the regular unleaded you pay around $8.18/usgal for there in the UK demonstrably "better" that what we have here? Here, and I presume there, there are "minimum standard" fuels you find at the cut rate stations vs a better grade of fuel you might find at name-brand stations. The only real overall difference I see is the ethanol content, but that really doesn't count in terms of defining "quality" IMO (not that it's good... but that's another discussion)

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles.


The difference in sulfur limits in gasoline isn't enough to impact OCI length. Before sulfur limits were imposed it may have been a factor, but that was a long time ago.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles.


The difference in sulfur limits in gasoline isn't enough to impact OCI length. Before sulfur limits were imposed it may have been a factor, but that was a long time ago.


Sulphur is a common diesel fuel impurity in many countries, although Germany does not have a problem with it. It only causes trouble at idle, but the other nasty that won't be stopped by filters. is the few percentage of Ethanol that some countries use as a cheap Biocide. It can cause real damage at high power settings.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles.


The difference in sulfur limits in gasoline isn't enough to impact OCI length. Before sulfur limits were imposed it may have been a factor, but that was a long time ago.


Sulphur is a common diesel fuel impurity in many countries, although Germany does not have a problem with it. It only causes trouble at idle, but the other nasty that won't be stopped by filters. is the few percentage of Ethanol that some countries use as a cheap Biocide. It can cause real damage at high power settings.


What sort of damage?

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
IMHO, "poor fuel" = 10% ethanol

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: FowVay
Well, those German auto and oil company engineers (I own VW and BMW presently and have owned Mercedes) have different oil drain intervals between North America and Europe for a simple reason. It isn't economics.. it's because our fuel in North America is garbage. Oil drain intervals take contamination from combustion blow-by as a large factor. Our gasoline is dirty compared to Europe and our diesel fuel has much too little cetane and lubrication for automotive type vehicles.


The difference in sulfur limits in gasoline isn't enough to impact OCI length. Before sulfur limits were imposed it may have been a factor, but that was a long time ago.


Sulphur is a common diesel fuel impurity in many countries, although Germany does not have a problem with it. It only causes trouble at idle, but the other nasty that won't be stopped by filters. is the few percentage of Ethanol that some countries use as a cheap Biocide. It can cause real damage at high power settings.


What sort of damage?


When the diesel is hot and you use full power in a bad case (Eg Brazilian diesel) is causes pre ignition, otherwise it results in a higher than normal cylinder head temp. It's mostly a boy racer problem and an engine in normal use will not be effected.
Real biocide is expensive, so poor countries that are warm and humid use some version of industrial alcohol, in Brazil they use cane alcohol insted of petrol, so the additive costs very little.
The other diesel additive in poor countries is kerosene (Jet fuel) which is used in places where the tax on diesel is high, it is added illegally because Jet fuel is often un taxed. The diesel in Fiji I used was about 25% kerosene and it causes a fair amounbt of smoke when you use high power settings.

 

[edwardh1]

off topic - we rented in 07 some type "a" series mercedes from hertz in england- it looked like a vw rabbit, diesel I think, got an honest 40 MPG. put in 10 gallons, drive 400 miles then look for a station.
I said wish they sold that in the us

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: edwardh1
off topic - we rented in 07 some type "a" series mercedes from hertz in england- it looked like a vw rabbit, diesel I think, got an honest 40 MPG. put in 10 gallons, drive 400 miles then look for a station.
I said wish they sold that in the us


Diesel cars were are hard sell in the US in the past and they are only just starting to catch on now.

 

[MBS500]

Originally Posted By: edwardh1
off topic - we rented in 07 some type "a" series mercedes from hertz in england- it looked like a vw rabbit, diesel I think, got an honest 40 MPG. put in 10 gallons, drive 400 miles then look for a station.
I said wish they sold that in the us

A-class is coming to U.S soon. I hope diesel versions too.

 

[RF Overlord]

A previous boss had an early '80s Caprice(?) wagon with the 5.7 diesel. I got to drive it a few times and other than the clatter it was OK, just a bit underpowered. It eventually succumbed to the stretched head bolt issue and he got rid of it.

Situations like this are one of the reasons people were put off diesels in America.