OCIs for sludge monsters

[ericthepig]

A bit more info to bring things into balance (from the tally website) -

While some engine types are more prone to sludge formation, the fact is that only very small proportion of the "affected" engines actually fail in service.

For example out of the over 3.3 million Toyota engines that are "affected" only about 7,000 of them have had serious failures. That is 0.2% or about two failures in 1,000 engines

 

[JAG]

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So, question for BITOG. If the above is true, then we're not dealing w/ a baking oil situation (though it's probably hotter than it should be given the lack of vent) - we're dealing w/ gases that don't escape leading to varnish leading to sludge. So what oil base stock and/or additive is best to combat this. If it's not a pure heat situation, then perhaps PAO vs dino is mute (?).

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Long drain oils will best combat that.

 

[dgp123]

i'm suprised, i had just assumed the vw/audi was the king of sludgers (makes me feel a bit better owning a 1.8t!)

i bought my 1.8t a4 at 95k with all service records. the first owner had all synthetic changes done around 5k and sold it at 80k miles to the guy who sold it to me. He told me that he had run dino in it for the few oci's he had it. i changed the black-as-sin ---- oil out 2nd day I had it to M1 and the difference was amazing. It sounded better, MUCH better throttle response, ran MUCH smoother, had MUCH more power and it wasn't the "new oil placebo effect". I am wondering if this was starting to sludge in these 3 dino oci's and this was before I even knew anything about the 1.8t sludge saga...

 

[dgp123]

i first put in Mobil 1 5w30 which i think did some cleaning and looked like total black garbage afer 3k, changed to 0w40 and I'm just coming up on 5k with it and it still looks like new oil. hasn't used a drop either.

 

[dgp123]

now for 5k, my dilema is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 vs. 0w40... hmmmm...

 

[derek244]

I told myself I would not post to this thread...

DISCLAIMER: I work a Toyota dealer. I am biased. I am sorry.

Ok, these engines do not sludge on 3-5k OCI's. Nope, they don't. Never seen one, and have seen hundreds more than the average guy.

I don't know why they sludge (besides extended OCI's), and Toyota has NEVER released an official statement on it. I have heard several theories, but nothing more. Trying to figure it out at this point is counterproductive IMO.

Toyota switched to a 7500 mile OCI in 1997, and also adapted the OBD2 engine management system. Maybe there is a connection, but again, it does not matter to the guy who is trying to prevent sludge. Change the oil and filter at no more than 5,000 miles (conventional or synthetic) and all is well.

I have posted on this subject before so don't hate me. I just HATE seeing wrong or inaccurate information on the Toyota sludge issue. Not that this thread contains any, but I had to respond just in case.

 

[BrianWC]

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i first put in Mobil 1 5w30 which i think did some cleaning and looked like total black garbage afer 3k, changed to 0w40 and I'm just coming up on 5k with it and it still looks like new oil. hasn't used a drop either.

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Regular synthetic oil isn't going to clean much if anything.

 

[BrianWC]

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A bit more info to bring things into balance (from the tally website) -

While some engine types are more prone to sludge formation, the fact is that only very small proportion of the "affected" engines actually fail in service.

For example out of the over 3.3 million Toyota engines that are "affected" only about 7,000 of them have had serious failures. That is 0.2% or about two failures in 1,000 engines

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Lol, about 2500 of my 3000 or so posts deal with SAAB sludge. You're on the right track with the PCV system but varnish doesn't just turn into sludge. It's a bit more complicated. Yes, though, proper ventilation is important and was the SAAB Achilles heel as well.

In addition to aiding varnish formation, those blow by gases are rich in sulfuric acid (and maybe nitric IIRC). When they aren't properly evacuated from the engine, they have to be dealt with. What deals with them? The oil's additive pack and its anti-oxidants/acids. Therefore, these components are sacrificed at a much higher rate than normal. When they are depleted, your oil can't cope with the engine environment for long and begins oxidizing. When that happens, it's a short road to Sludgeville.

 

[dgp123]

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i first put in Mobil 1 5w30 which i think did some cleaning and looked like total black garbage afer 3k, changed to 0w40 and I'm just coming up on 5k with it and it still looks like new oil. hasn't used a drop either.

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Regular synthetic oil isn't going to clean much if anything.

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maybe it simply rinsed some junk out

 

[ericthepig]

M1 bold faced claims that their HM products clean out varnish and sludge - even recommending short OCIs during this "cleaning" phase. I've always held the belief that Synths clean-up what dino has laid down. But my readings on BITOG indicate there is no hard evidence that Synths clean varnish or sludge. Presently no longer a believer.

Derek, I talked to my Toyota mech about this a couple of years ago (mech at very large Yota dealership here in LR - Landers Toyota). He stated the same as you - do 5k OCIs and it won't happen to you. You guys are so boring.

 

[JAG]

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Mobil 1 bold faced claims that their HM products clean out varnish and sludge - even recommending short OCIs during this "cleaning" phase. I've always held the belief that Synths clean-up what dino has laid down. But my readings on BITOG indicate there is no hard evidence that Synths clean varnish or sludge. Presently no longer a believer.

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Some people have seen slow cleaning by using certain synthetics. Others haven't. It just depends. Even Auto-RX doesn't always do much cleaning. Sometimes it does quite a bit. Just depends. Mobil 1 0W-40 did some slow cleaning in my VW 1.8T engine that had varnish/carbon deposits from other synthetic oils.

 

[JAG]

One more thing, Mobil 1 10w30 High Mileage heated to ~210F for a few hours partially dissolved a bead of vegetable oil varnish/sludge (whatever you want to call it).

 

[BrianWC]

Yes, I guess I have to parse my words in light of JAG's note of slow cleaning with 0W40. I've seen some other vague references without much documentary proof so I don't give them MUCH weight. JAG is a very thorough person though and if he says Mobil 1 0W40 is cleaning his car, I believe him.

You bring up another point with the new Mobil 1 High Mileage oils. For a company that brings new art to weasel words, they make some very blunt, bold claims for these particular oils. I'd love to know what the super-secret agent is behind the talk. As of yet, we haven't had enough (if any?) OC's run with them to figure out what's so special. Maxlife synthetic used to make such claims on the bottles that preceded the ones that were just phased out. The current and immediately prior bottles didn't make the claim, I don't think.

From my own personal experience, which doesn't account for much, I know, I haven't documented any cleaning going on from either Mobil 1, Mobil 1 Extended Performance, or the oil most mythologized for its cleaning, Redline. I saw more deposits removed from a 2 ounce maintenance dose or arx added to some 5-6 year old Pennzoil Synthetic 10W30 than I did to 5500 miles of Redline 5W30.

 

[ericthepig]

JAG, did you test the veg. oil sludge in another oil as well ? (Otherwise perhaps that particular type of sludge would've dissolved in any oil at 215.)

 

[JAG]

Eric, I did put the same bead into Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 as well. I can't remember which oil it was in first but I do remember that I concluded that the Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30 oil seemed to dissolve it better than the Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 did. This requires more testing to make solid conclusions...I did it as a quick and dirty curiousity experiment. You are right about the possibility you raised.

Here's the thread on this topic.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post892982

 

[Greggy_D]

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M1 bold faced claims that their HM products clean out varnish and sludge -

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It's funny you mention this. I just opened the Sept issue of Car and Driver magazine. There's an ad for Mobil 1 High Mileage. In the center of the ad, is a picture of the inside of a PRISTINE engine. At the top:

What if the last 75,000 miles never happened to your engine?

What is Mobil trying to imply? That their new Mobil 1 High Mileage oil will magically RESTORE any wear from the past 75,000 miles? If you ask me, this as is misleading as ----.

 

[dgp123]

despite M1's sub-par reputation around here, I can't help but have more faith in it than other oils (granted, i missed the GC train). used oil analysis usually turn out well and I haven't seen many other oils that boast the specs of 0w40 (but obviously there are some). I feel like I see a lot of negative opinions of M1 without much evidence, not that anyone's really done that in this thread.

 

[ericthepig]

dgp, I've used M1 reg. line and EP for 80k. I'm not writing home about my experience with it. I'm thinking (hoping) I can do better. Next up... Schaeffers 7000.

 

[drivewaytech]

The issue of sludge is what made me first happen upon this forum. My little beast is the Chrysler 2.7L built by Mitsubishi. Basically, my battle plan to combat the sludgies is to monitor the PCV system at every OCI and use synthetic every 3 to 4K, which I buy during BOGO sales or rebate offers. No extra $$ lost. I only wonder if GrpIII oils assist against sludge issues comparable to GrpIV or V. It would seem criminal to dump ester-based oil at 3-4K even if it is a sludge prone engine. But running extended OCI's in this situation doesn't seem practical either.

 

[BrianWC]

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despite M1's sub-par reputation around here, I can't help but have more faith in it than other oils (granted, i missed the GC train). used oil analysis usually turn out well and I haven't seen many other oils that boast the specs of 0w40 (but obviously there are some). I feel like I see a lot of negative opinions of M1 without much evidence, not that anyone's really done that in this thread.

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Exactly, that's a bold claim in that C&D ad. I was stunned when I saw it. Think someone could sue if they use the Mobil 1 High Mileage and after a reasonable interval their engine isn't that clean?