Obsolete "Motor" oils

[Rat407]

Well if I win the PowerBall, then I could buy a new vehicle and run this in it and do used oil analysis to see exactly what happens to the inside of a modern engine. My own R&D, research and destruction.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Question is, what damage would one oil change running an SA oil do to todays engine? Wouldn't it have to be run for at least 20k miles before you would see damage. Also what damage would come into play, major sludge? Do most of these mom and pop places carry more than maybe two oil changes of SA?



Most SA oils are GroupI base oils and have only a foam inhibitor in them; no Anti-Wear, no detergents, no dispersants, no metal inhibitors, no rust inhibitors, no VIIs, no friction modifiers.

Compounding the problem with some of these substandard oils, is the fact that many of them have had very low viscosities which probably mean almost ZERO HTHS.

So I think by this information you can see what would happen in 3k miles.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Well said, Tom.

Unfortunately, in America this type of behaviour is allowed because "it's a free country" and because we have a capitalistic marketplace where ethics and propriety take a back seat to the Almighty Dollar.


The government has things like "regulations." The last time I checked it is sort of illegal to say --sell your daughter into sexual slavery-- for an almighty dollar. While I concur there are many unethical business practices that go unchecked due to incessant lobbying by self-serving douches with no social conscience -- blatant things like this constitute little more than consumer fraud are usually regulated...

Quote:
Couple that with the fact that as Americans, we feel we should not have to actually put any effort into educating ourselves and learning something about the products we buy. We just want someone to tell us what's the "best" and take their word for it.


Not everyones' forte is motor oil, fuel, and automotive related stuff. That's why they pay big buck$ to stealerships and the aftermarket repair racket. The truth is that it is reasonable for someone to assume that a product marked as "5w30" should at least be able to sustain their engine lubrication-wise even if, say, detergent additive levels are inadequate. These products, such as the one in the example I just posted above, fragrantly constitute fraud because in no way does "Bulleye's" oil actually perform like or constitute a "5w30" motor oil and it doesn't even meet the minimum "SC" spec's it claims too.

Originally Posted By: pqamerica.com
CONSUMER ALERT: The label on this product states it is an "SAE 5W30" motor oil. In fact, PQIA's test results show this product is not a SAE 5w30, does not meet the requirements of an API SC/CC, and does not meet any other recognized specifications for a motor oil. In addition, the viscosity for this oil is 75% below where it should be for a SAE 5w30.

Further, this product is labeled as meeting API SC which is an obsolete specification. The API cautions this specification is "Not suitable for use in gasoline-powered automotive engines built after 1967. Use in more modern engines may cause unsatisfactory performance or equipment harm."

NOTE:

PQIA sampled this brand in January of 2011 and issued a CONSUMER ALERT. This is a new sample purchased in July 2011 at the same location. Test results show this product is very similar to the previous sample tested, and, whereas it can cause damage to a passenger car engine, it remains in the market.


LINK

By the Valero shop on Thompson Ave. in East Syracuse (off the I90) carrying this oil (because obviously it must be cheaper than carrying an actual motor oil like Valero's own houseblend, which seems like a stout oil) they are in fact not only harming the consumer ignorant enough to actually use it for an entire oil change, but they are contributing to smog and potentially higher fuel prices due to the damage done to engines. They are in essence harming everyone...

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

It may be that the authorities should pursue those selling products unsuitable for the uses listed on their labels, or maybe a tort litigation group should pursue both the bottlers and the retail sellers with a big money class action.
If the legal costs of offering a junk product to unsophisticated and impecunious buyers exceed the economic yield, the activity will cease.


If a bottle of similar oil appeared on a shelf in Germany the hands of the person who placed it there would be cut off.
The, "Look Ma No Hands," spec is the certification we've all been waiting for.

 

[CATERHAM]

I agree it is pure deception; it's fraud.

Every party involved including the stores that carry this [censored] should be prosecuted.
I know PQIA is doing what they can but I guess funding is limited?

I've never noticed these off brand SA oils at convenience stores here in Canada.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've never noticed these off brand SA oils at convenience stores here in Canada.

I haven't, either. I noticed that 7-11 has its own labelled oil. I never looked at it closely, but odds are that it's got current licensing. Even the small convenience stores where I've seen oil at least have something they can buy at Costco or RCWC, which are name brand oils. The only odd thing I ever see is the regular appearance of Pennzoil conventional on Esso shelves.

 

[SS1970chrysler]

I buy a few quarts of SA 30 monthly, but not for use in engines. I work on steel wire weaving machines from the 50's that use it for drip and splash lubrication. I also buy some of the SF 10w-40 for top-off use in my work cars.
However, I don't buy the convenience store stuff at premium prices.

 

[GMorg]

If the stores that carry these oils carry some blame, then I'll extend it a little further. If we are shopping at these stores and keeping them in business, then it is our fault too.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Tom - this is a very real problem in China. Good high end lubricants have been hard to locate let alone use! Many modern vehicles have been fed a diet of unsuitable lubricant and the Marketplace will no doubt be left with the dire results

Moves are underway to quickly address the situation, but the horse is already in the next paddock!

 

[armos]

I believe there's a difference between unethical and what should be illegal. The distinction has faded when even the people who write the laws get that confused. I'm sure a lawyer can spin anything into illegality if they work at it.
The price of freedom is that people have to take responsibility for educating themselves and making their own decisions. On a case by case basis, I might agree that some of these products deserve lawsuits. I'd have to consider it carefully before being willing to go that far. You wouldn't want me on the jury. The role of government is already way too big. I don't want any more of their "protection". I really don't need them telling me what products not to buy. Similar issues of horrendous quality come up with countless other products, not just oil. I reserve the right to buy [censored] if I decide to, regardless of the government's opinion.

I agree that much of this junk is highly unethical, and I have no respect for anybody who produces it or retails it. People will just have to learn to care enough about their car to care what they put in it. But if somebody doesn't care, that's their problem. I'm not going to get the government in everybody's business because of it.
I really don't think anybody who buys "Bullseye" is making any effort at all. Even if they know nothing about oil, they've heard of real brands. They just don't care.

I do agree with informing people, but ultimately it's up to them. If I saw anybody buying Bullseye/whatever I'd try to talk them out of it and refer them to the PQIA site so they'll learn. I'm grateful PQIA is doing the testing they do. Safe advice for most people is to stick with any well known brand, and show them what a legitimate API logo looks like.

That's what trademarks are for. Companies can build brands with a reputation that people trust. If somebody starts copying the look of a Pennzoil bottle, then there's a good time for a lawsuit. That kind of fraud does occur in some industries (especially from China) and that's a serious problem.

 

[buster]

I completely agree. It's ridiculous.

 

[AmishFury]

just notice that bullseye oil label claims it's a HM and prevents engine leaks... i imagine if you get that sludge buildup going it will keep it from leaking

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: armos
The price of freedom is that people have to take responsibility for educating themselves and making their own decisions.
My original point exactly.

Originally Posted By: armos
I really don't think anybody who buys "Bullseye" is making any effort at all. Even if they know nothing about oil, they've heard of real brands. They just don't care.
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Not everyones' forte is motor oil, fuel, and automotive related stuff. That's why they pay big buck$ to stealerships and the aftermarket repair racket.
People don't have to be as passionate about lubrication and filtration as we are, but they need to take some responsibility. If one owns a $40,000 machine, one should at least learn what BASIC maintenance is required, even if they're paying someone else to perform it.

 

[Nickdfresh]

I agree there's an element of buyer beware and people should read their manuals.

But I am aware of related cases such as the infamous local "Yellow Goose Motor Oil" (Yellow Goose was a now [mostly] defunct minimart at Sunoco stations) scandal where a local blender sent out oil that was improperly blended resulting in the launching of several motors. They paid damages and their was a run on engine rebuilds. This happened sometime in the late 1980's or very early 90's in the Buffalo area. People have been held accountable and I think it's pretty cut and dry that Bullseye is breaking some consumer protection laws as they list an oil as a 5w30 or 10w30 when it's barely a 10W and it is blatantly grounds for suits and prosecution. I suspect at some point they'll be hearing from some state's attorney general.

There was also the idiot that owned "Mr. Oil Change," that was served up by Castrol after they got wind he was using a cheaper, but still decent quality, locally blended oil in bulk tanks and advertizing they used Castrol oil as well as cooking his books...

Heck, if someone out there has a motor going bad perhaps they should just do a few Bullseye changes along with an OCI. Then get a lawyer...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
People don't have to be as passionate about lubrication and filtration as we are, but they need to take some responsibility.

That cannot be forgotten, either. My dad did his own maintenance for years and did it correctly. That being said, he'd ask if I was OCD (or, more accurately, "nuts") for being on this site. He followed what the manual told him, and things went well. There is some sensible medium between us and people who have no idea what motor oil is or what their manuals say.

Sometimes people just think no sensible maintenance is required. Too many products these days are so cheap and throw away that reading the manual or performing maintenance is a waste of valuable time. Unfortunately, they extend that to their expensive goodies.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Well said, Tom.

Unfortunately, in America this type of behaviour is allowed because "it's a free country" and because we have a capitalistic marketplace where ethics and propriety take a back seat to the Almighty Dollar.


Then should the government move in and take over the extraction, design, blending and distribution of these products? Perhaps mandate a particular formula for every grade oil that all manufactures would have to follow? What would that do for finished lubricant development and improvement?

PQIA is doing great work but they are a small organization. API should "lean" on retailers and mount an educational campaign both for retailers and consumers. This would be a good PR move for them and really help consumers.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Well said, Tom.

Unfortunately, in America this type of behaviour is allowed because "it's a free country" and because we have a capitalistic marketplace where ethics and propriety take a back seat to the Almighty Dollar.


Then should the government move in and take over the extraction, design, blending and distribution of these products? Perhaps mandate a particular formula for every grade oil that all manufactures would have to follow? What would that do for finished lubricant development and improvement?

PQIA is doing great work but they are a small organization. API should "lean" on retailers and mount an educational campaign both for retailers and consumers. This would be a good PR move for them and really help consumers.


This is a straw man.
Nobody wrote anything about the government taking over the industry.
There is a common term for labeling a product as being suitable for uses to which it is in fact known to be unsuited.
The term is fraud, and it's neither PQIAs nor APIs job to police fraud in the marketplace.
There are some functions to which government is well suited and for which it should be repsonsible.

 

[A_Harman]

Taking the extreme case of Bullseye oil, they are committing fraud because the low viscosity doesn't even meet the requirements of SC that they put on the label. (Never mind the lack of any kind of additive package.) Fraud is something for the State Attorneys General to investigate and prosecute.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

This is a straw man.
Nobody wrote anything about the government taking over the industry.
There is a common term for labeling a product as being suitable for uses to which it is in fact known to be unsuited.
The term is fraud, and it's neither PQIAs nor APIs job to police fraud in the marketplace.
There are some functions to which government is well suited and for which it should be repsonsible.

He was complaining about a free market. The only other option is government regulation, hence my post.

Obviously PQIA and API have no police powers, but they do have influence. Proving fraud in these cases might be difficult and would likely cost far more in lawyer fees than the price of a car.

Especially if the obsolete oil label does not have any technically wrong information on it. I'm sure most of these less than scrupulous companies have lawyers review their labeling so as to protect themselves from tort.

PQIA has purchased some of these bad oils. Does that give them standing to file a law suit? I doubt they have the resources to proceed anyway.

Have they referred any of these complaints to the State Attorneys General where these oils are manufactured? What has been the response from these officials?

 

[CATERHAM]

I believe PQIA have had some successful lawsuits that have gone through the courts.