Nokian to Build Factory in Tennessee

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Well yeah, maybe I suppose to be clear. But there is so much emphasis in the South to bring these kind of jobs, and so much emphasis to gut education, that there is only one possible outcome.
Germany is per capita largest manufacturing country in the world, but they do not have problems balancing that. Though, those evil unions are making sure manufacturing jobs are also paid well (in reality, not measured by South East standards).


Factory workers in Germany have influence that US blue collar workers could only dream about.
A US semiconductor company had a fab (wafer factory) in Germany that it wanted to shut down, but it couldn't legally just close the building and fire everybody...the whole process had to be worked out with the worker's council. Instead of dealing with that, they found a startup company (that I ended up working for later) that was willing to "buy" it for a token sum with the understanding that they were going to keep running the fab.
Now, that company ending up basically collapsing a few years later (after I left) and I'm not sure what happened to the fab at that point. But, the workers got a few more years of pay and time to look for a better job before that happened. Seems like this level of protection hasn't killed off the German economy by a long shot...
Of course, those workers are also paying taxes out of the wazoo compared to what US workers are used to...while also getting social supports like universal health care and good unemployment protection.

I did not even come to that.
Let's not forget how Wal Mart crashed and burned in Germany once they wanted to treat workers in slightly similar manner like in the U.S.

 

[Silverado12]

Don't forget TN's big corporate tax breaks either. The VW plant in Chattanooga was the biggeat giveaway in the country. Also no TN income tax comes at a price; they have to pay something like 10% sales tax.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Don't forget TN's big corporate tax breaks either. The VW plant in Chattanooga was the biggeat giveaway in the country. Also no TN income tax comes at a price; they have to pay something like 10% sales tax.

Yep, although I think AL offered more tax breaks to VW, but education in TN was the key.
Same is in AL, just different tax. Extremely low real estate tax, and sales tax on par with CA (while wages are of course AL style).

 

[WhizkidTN]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Don't forget TN's big corporate tax breaks either. The VW plant in Chattanooga was the biggeat giveaway in the country. Also no TN income tax comes at a price; they have to pay something like 10% sales tax.


FWIW: Sales tax is in TN is currently 9.25% (in Knoxville; other counties ranges from 8.5% to 9.75%) on most goods, 5% on food. The sales tax on food is about to go down to 4% as our Gov just signed a bill to raise the gas tax a bit (4 cents/gal increase) since it hasn't been touched since the early 80's and this will go ONLY to road projects. IMHO: I'll take that sales tax (which is partly refundable on federal taxes) ANYDAY instead of income taxes. In fact, our State constitution bars an income tax.

I should note that our property taxes are also quite low and go to pay for public education (along with federal dollars I'm sure). Example: $230K house on 0.5acre, $1.2K/yr taxes.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Don't forget TN's big corporate tax breaks either. The VW plant in Chattanooga was the biggeat giveaway in the country. Also no TN income tax comes at a price; they have to pay something like 10% sales tax.


FWIW: Sales tax is in TN is currently 9.25% (in Knoxville; other counties ranges from 8.5% to 9.75%) on most goods, 5% on food. The sales tax on food is about to go down to 4% as our Gov just signed a bill to raise the gas tax a bit (4 cents/gal increase) since it hasn't been touched since the early 80's and this will go ONLY to road projects. IMHO: I'll take that sales tax (which is partly refundable on federal taxes) ANYDAY instead of income taxes. In fact, our State constitution bars an income tax.

I should note that our property taxes are also quite low and go to pay for public education (along with federal dollars I'm sure). Example: $230K house on 0.5acre, $1.2K/yr taxes.

If you do not see problems in this post, then oh well. I know TN has income tax barred in constitution, same like AL has property tax protected in 1911 in their constitution. Thing is: there is a reason why it is in constitution, and it is not there for any noble cause. Figure out for yourself why. I am not going to get into that here.

 

[DeepFriar]

I have to doubt that education differences were a deciding factor between Chattanooga and Huntsville. While the overall state of Alabama certainly has issues (which, like most places, tracks pretty closely with the poverty level), the Huntsville area has always had outstanding schools including very high numbers of National Merit Scholars. Huntsville is home to the NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center, the Army Missile Laboratory, Army Engineering Supprt Center, the Ballistic Missile Defense Command and many other entities including literally thousands of engineering contractors. They have children and have always supported good schools. Tennessee, by the way, has free junior colleges. Sounds like edyvw has a hater complex going against the South based on generalities which is usual for hate. Use some of that legal marajuana out there and chill the heck out brother.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I have to doubt that education differences were a deciding factor between Chattanooga and Huntsville. While the overall state of Alabama certainly has issues (which, like most places, tracks pretty closely with the poverty level), the Huntsville area has always had outstanding schools including very high numbers of National Merit Scholars. Huntsville is home to the NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center, the Army Missile Laboratory, Army Engineering Supprt Center, the Ballistic Missile Defense Command and many other entities including literally thousands of engineering contractors. They have children and have always supported good schools. Tennessee, by the way, has free junior colleges. Sounds like edyvw has a hater complex going against the South based on generalities which is usual for hate. Use some of that legal marajuana out there and chill the heck out brother.

Well, maybe in the U.S. education is becoming secondary issue, especially in the South, but can you imagine, people still care about it, especially those evil unions.
Huntsville has good schools, PRIVATE schools. Alabama has some of the greatest private schools in the country. Mostly founded in 1955, 1956. Figure yourself why.

 

[d00df00d]

Education in America is like health care in America. We have tons of world-class institutions all over the country. That's not the problem. The problem is that only wealthy people consistently have easy access to those options. If you're not wealthy and/or lucky, your options are... well, let's be polite and say "not as good as in other countries."

So yeah, you can find excellent schools in any state. The only question is how realistic those options are if you're among the vast majority of people who are not rich. In general, and with a few exceptions, the answer to that question is not as good in a southern state as it is in a northeastern or west coast state.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Education in America is like health care in America. We have tons of world-class institutions all over the country. That's not the problem. The problem is that only wealthy people consistently have easy access to those options. If you're not wealthy and/or lucky, your options are... well, let's be polite and say "not as good as in other countries."

So yeah, you can find excellent schools in any state. The only question is how realistic those options are if you're among the vast majority of people who are not rich. In general, and with few exceptions, the answer to that question is not as good in a southern state as it is in a northeastern or west coast state.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I have to doubt that education differences were a deciding factor between Chattanooga and Huntsville. While the overall state of Alabama certainly has issues (which, like most places, tracks pretty closely with the poverty level), the Huntsville area has always had outstanding schools including very high numbers of National Merit Scholars. Huntsville is home to the NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center, the Army Missile Laboratory, Army Engineering Supprt Center, the Ballistic Missile Defense Command and many other entities including literally thousands of engineering contractors. They have children and have always supported good schools. Tennessee, by the way, has free junior colleges. Sounds like edyvw has a hater complex going against the South based on generalities which is usual for hate. Use some of that legal marajuana out there and chill the heck out brother.

Well, maybe in the U.S. education is becoming secondary issue, especially in the South, but can you imagine, people still care about it, especially those evil unions.
Huntsville has good schools, PRIVATE schools. Alabama has some of the greatest private schools in the country. Mostly founded in 1955, 1956. Figure yourself why.


Not to argue but accuracy requires me to say those National Merit Scholars I talked about in Huntsville were from the public high school, Gus Grissom High School. My girls weren't in high school yet but there were in the public schools there 1982-1984. So maybe there are great private schools, and there are, but also great public schools where parents demand it and also have and enforce high expectations of their children. That's the only way to get results. It isn't just about money, never was. And, if you want to edge around the white flight issue, that happened EVERYWHERE, not just in the South. I'll share this with you...

I grew up in a coal camp in Harlan County, KY. Three generations of coal miners and no money. My father and mother had high school for themselves and high expectations for us. Failure was not an option as they say. Where we lived you fought almost every day, the ghetto has nothing on us. I personally have been stabbed twice and shot at multiple times. I've had a cocked .45 held against my head and been in, and lost, many more fights than I can remember. I was what you would call a fast kid. We had to be. Smoking, drinking, general troublemaker. But it didn't mean my parents didn't love me, they still expected me to accomplish. And I wish I had done better but I've done alright and had an interesting life to boot. My only brother, younger, and I have two masters degrees apiece in "real" subjects, not academic pablum. Our three first cousins, father's (only) brother's sons, have PhD's though two of those are professors and I forgive them. I tell you about the others by way of saying I was not some exceptional genius, far from it.

Now get this, not one of us had anybody pay our way. No family money. No family connections. Nada. Am I bragging? Yes but not without cause. In my case the military helped me pay for undergraduate but I never did get around to using my VA after the AF. One of the cousins returned to the Navy two times to get more academic help. So loans, part time jobs, school at night, whatever it took.

My point to you is that it's up to you. Even if it was true that things were stacked against you, so what. Go out there and kick the world in the teeth. Just stop blaming everyone else except the man in the mirror. And get off that South kick you're on, we're doing just fine.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Education in America is like health care in America. We have tons of world-class institutions all over the country. That's not the problem. The problem is that only wealthy people consistently have easy access to those options. If you're not wealthy and/or lucky, your options are... well, let's be polite and say "not as good as in other countries."

So yeah, you can find excellent schools in any state. The only question is how realistic those options are if you're among the vast majority of people who are not rich. In general, and with a few exceptions, the answer to that question is not as good in a southern state as it is in a northeastern or west coast state.


There is not a first tier university in this country, from Harvard on down, that even so much as looks at ability to pay until after they have offered a student entry. The policy has been to find the brightest and then get them the student aid they need. Which, of course, has its own set of problems like debt but it's not about having a rich daddy writing checks. It's one heck of a lot easier to get a good education than it is to get good medical care. But notice how one tends to follow the other. Good education, good job, good medical care. I didn't write the rules and neither did you. But I know it's up to you and me to win the game. If you don't want to play the game, you get run over by it. Yours and my choice.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Education in America is like health care in America. We have tons of world-class institutions all over the country. That's not the problem. The problem is that only wealthy people consistently have easy access to those options. If you're not wealthy and/or lucky, your options are... well, let's be polite and say "not as good as in other countries."

So yeah, you can find excellent schools in any state. The only question is how realistic those options are if you're among the vast majority of people who are not rich. In general, and with a few exceptions, the answer to that question is not as good in a southern state as it is in a northeastern or west coast state.


There is not a first tier university in this country, from Harvard on down, that even so much as looks at ability to pay until after they have offered a student entry. The policy has been to find the brightest and then get them the student aid they need. Which, of course, has its own set of problems like debt but it's not about having a rich daddy writing checks. It's one heck of a lot easier to get a good education than it is to get good medical care. But notice how one tends to follow the other. Good education, good job, good medical care. I didn't write the rules and neither did you. But I know it's up to you and me to win the game. If you don't want to play the game, you get run over by it. Yours and my choice.

The universities are not per se a problem. I work at one of the biggest systems in the country.
It is K-12 education that is huge problem. I am also immigrant. IMO, the U.S. has best university system. K12 on other hand is far cry compare to a lot of third world countries.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I have to doubt that education differences were a deciding factor between Chattanooga and Huntsville. While the overall state of Alabama certainly has issues (which, like most places, tracks pretty closely with the poverty level), the Huntsville area has always had outstanding schools including very high numbers of National Merit Scholars. Huntsville is home to the NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center, the Army Missile Laboratory, Army Engineering Supprt Center, the Ballistic Missile Defense Command and many other entities including literally thousands of engineering contractors. They have children and have always supported good schools. Tennessee, by the way, has free junior colleges. Sounds like edyvw has a hater complex going against the South based on generalities which is usual for hate. Use some of that legal marajuana out there and chill the heck out brother.

Well, maybe in the U.S. education is becoming secondary issue, especially in the South, but can you imagine, people still care about it, especially those evil unions.
Huntsville has good schools, PRIVATE schools. Alabama has some of the greatest private schools in the country. Mostly founded in 1955, 1956. Figure yourself why.


Not to argue but accuracy requires me to say those National Merit Scholars I talked about in Huntsville were from the public high school, Gus Grissom High School. My girls weren't in high school yet but there were in the public schools there 1982-1984. So maybe there are great private schools, and there are, but also great public schools where parents demand it and also have and enforce high expectations of their children. That's the only way to get results. It isn't just about money, never was. And, if you want to edge around the white flight issue, that happened EVERYWHERE, not just in the South. I'll share this with you...

I grew up in a coal camp in Harlan County, KY. Three generations of coal miners and no money. My father and mother had high school for themselves and high expectations for us. Failure was not an option as they say. Where we lived you fought almost every day, the ghetto has nothing on us. I personally have been stabbed twice and shot at multiple times. I've had a cocked .45 held against my head and been in, and lost, many more fights than I can remember. I was what you would call a fast kid. We had to be. Smoking, drinking, general troublemaker. But it didn't mean my parents didn't love me, they still expected me to accomplish. And I wish I had done better but I've done alright and had an interesting life to boot. My only brother, younger, and I have two masters degrees apiece in "real" subjects, not academic pablum. Our three first cousins, father's (only) brother's sons, have PhD's though two of those are professors and I forgive them. I tell you about the others by way of saying I was not some exceptional genius, far from it.

Now get this, not one of us had anybody pay our way. No family money. No family connections. Nada. Am I bragging? Yes but not without cause. In my case the military helped me pay for undergraduate but I never did get around to using my VA after the AF. One of the cousins returned to the Navy two times to get more academic help. So loans, part time jobs, school at night, whatever it took.

My point to you is that it's up to you. Even if it was true that things were stacked against you, so what. Go out there and kick the world in the teeth. Just stop blaming everyone else except the man in the mirror. And get off that South kick you're on, we're doing just fine.

Stacked against me? Man, I used every opportunity this country can offer, finishing PhD without one cent of debt.
But I also work in education, and worked in education in Alabama, and let me tell you one thing: it is good ole boys system. So please, do not lecture me about public system in AL or South (I am not into telling my stories about horrors of education in the South, to put it this way). I was teaching there and when 70% of kids that went to public schools in AL FAIL citizenship test (test administered to immigrants pursuing citizenship) (like they do not know what happened on 4th of July, who was first president etc.) it is a BIG problem. I can name you few very good schools, but do not kid yourself about education or lack of it in the South and especially who has access to top tier schools. Especially in the state where governor cuts taxes and then ran sack educational budget to make up for loss revenue. You know, trickle down economics and similar Sci-Fi stories.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Now get this, not one of us had anybody pay our way. No family money. No family connections. Nada. Am I bragging? Yes but not without cause. In my case the military helped me pay for undergraduate but I never did get around to using my VA after the AF. One of the cousins returned to the Navy two times to get more academic help. So loans, part time jobs, school at night, whatever it took.

Just a few questions: how much was tuition back then, how much did those jobs pay, and what would those amounts come out to in 2017 dollars?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
There is not a first tier university in this country, from Harvard on down, that even so much as looks at ability to pay until after they have offered a student entry. The policy has been to find the brightest and then get them the student aid they need. Which, of course, has its own set of problems like debt but it's not about having a rich daddy writing checks. It's one heck of a lot easier to get a good education than it is to get good medical care. But notice how one tends to follow the other. Good education, good job, good medical care. I didn't write the rules and neither did you. But I know it's up to you and me to win the game. If you don't want to play the game, you get run over by it. Yours and my choice.

So I've actually gone to one of those top tier universities, I have many friends/colleagues/acquaintances who have attended and worked at them at various levels, and I've spent the last several years of my life helping students get into them.

The VAST majority of students in those schools come from rich families. Needs-blind admission solves the tuition problem, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the structural issues.

Something to understand as a preface: You cannot imagine how competitive these schools are nowadays. I am confident saying that because I have yet to meet anyone who isn't blown away by it, including admissions folks themselves. Applicants who would have gotten in 20-ish years ago wouldn't even be considered now. Their applications would go straight in the trash. Even applicants who would have been fine 10 years ago would have a very hard time now. Applicants who could easily secure multiple top-tier acceptances back then would barely stand out in the top-tier applicant pool these days. It's insane, and it's getting worse.

In that context, rich families have unbelievable advantages. They can afford the extracurriculars, the tutors, the travel experiences, and the private schools or homes in top school districts. They have access to top-flight college counselors and consultants to help refine their kids' applications and advocate for them to admissions committees. They have enough connections to basically hand their kids jobs, internships, and nascent professional networks. When those kids are pushed to the breaking point by their insane schedules, they can afford the therapy and medication (it's sad and shocking how important a factor this turns out to be). And the really rich families can literally trade big donations for admissions.

Top tier applicant pools are flooded with applications from kids like that. Non-wealthy kids in those applicant pools are bringing knives to a gun fight. Heck yeah some of them get through. But if you're a betting man, good luck with those odds.

And when the school year begins, the few non-wealthy kids at the school often have a hard time staying in the game. Their perspectives and attitudes are so different, and they can afford to do so much less, that they are instantly pegged as outsiders in their peer groups. Just participating in campus life can be an uphill battle for them.

All this and we haven't even gotten into who gets how much aid. (Hint: college is still insanely expensive for most people.)

So, yeah. Needs-blind admission sounds nice, and it's a boon for the few non-wealthy kids who get in. But because fees are such a small fraction of what wealth buys in this game, all the financial aid in the world can do little to change the overall reality.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Now get this, not one of us had anybody pay our way. No family money. No family connections. Nada. Am I bragging? Yes but not without cause. In my case the military helped me pay for undergraduate but I never did get around to using my VA after the AF. One of the cousins returned to the Navy two times to get more academic help. So loans, part time jobs, school at night, whatever it took.

Just a few questions: how much was tuition back then, how much did those jobs pay, and what would those amounts come out to in 2017 dollars?


I did my last Masters between 2009-2013 at Washington University in St. Louis. Expensive.

 

[d00df00d]

I know you understand that that does nothing of substance to answer the questions. That means you're ducking them on purpose. Sorry to see that.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
There is not a first tier university in this country, from Harvard on down, that even so much as looks at ability to pay until after they have offered a student entry. The policy has been to find the brightest and then get them the student aid they need. Which, of course, has its own set of problems like debt but it's not about having a rich daddy writing checks. It's one heck of a lot easier to get a good education than it is to get good medical care. But notice how one tends to follow the other. Good education, good job, good medical care. I didn't write the rules and neither did you. But I know it's up to you and me to win the game. If you don't want to play the game, you get run over by it. Yours and my choice.

So I've actually gone to one of those top tier universities, I have many friends/colleagues/acquaintances who have attended and worked at them at various levels, and I've spent the last several years of my life helping students get into them.

The VAST majority of students in those schools come from rich families. Needs-blind admission solves the tuition problem, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the structural issues.

Something to understand as a preface: You cannot imagine how competitive these schools are nowadays. I am confident saying that because I have yet to meet anyone who isn't blown away by it, including admissions folks themselves. Applicants who would have gotten in 20-ish years ago wouldn't even be considered now. Their applications would go straight in the trash. Even applicants who would have been fine 10 years ago would have a very hard time now. Applicants who could easily secure multiple top-tier acceptances back then would barely stand out in the top-tier applicant pool these days. It's insane, and it's getting worse.

In that context, rich families have unbelievable advantages. They can afford the extracurriculars, the tutors, the travel experiences, and the private schools or homes in top school districts. They have access to top-flight college counselors and consultants to help refine their kids' applications and advocate for them to admissions committees. They have enough connections to basically hand their kids jobs, internships, and nascent professional networks. When those kids are pushed to the breaking point by their insane schedules, they can afford the therapy and medication (it's sad and shocking how important a factor this turns out to be). And the really rich families can literally trade big donations for admissions.

Top tier applicant pools are flooded with applications from kids like that. Non-wealthy kids in those applicant pools are bringing knives to a gun fight. Heck yeah some of them get through. But if you're a betting man, good luck with those odds.

And when the school year begins, the few non-wealthy kids at the school often have a hard time staying in the game. Their perspectives and attitudes are so different, and they can afford to do so much less, that they are instantly pegged as outsiders in their peer groups. Just participating in campus life can be an uphill battle for them.

All this and we haven't even gotten into who gets how much aid. (Hint: college is still insanely expensive for most people.)

So, yeah. Needs-blind admission sounds nice, and it's a boon for the few non-wealthy kids who get in. But because fees are such a small fraction of what wealth buys in this game, all the financial aid in the world can do little to change the overall reality.


You'll be surprised to know that I agree with you on the structural difficulty, it's very real. But that's also a different argument than the earlier one about expense being the issue. Along with the things you're right about I would add cultural differences as well. Most major universities would have to hand out most of their admissions to Asian students unless they commit to keeping a balance. Fairfax County, VA (your tax dollars at work) would account for every available admission to the University of Virginia if academics were the only criterion.

But I submit to you that my earlier points are still correct. The game is the game is the game. And I notice that for all the excellent points you make I don't see a solution put forth. And I know why. There isn't one that does not involve lowering standards overall. But the world doesn't work that way and never has. Some people are going to outperform others no matter the reason why. Cries of "it ain't fair" are absolutely correct. And absolutely irrelevant. Hustle is all there is for those of us who didn't have the many other advantages. And one final thought. Whether from coal camp, ghetto, Indian reservation, immigrant sweat shop or juvenile detention center, parental expectations and discipline count for more than any other factor. I have seen too many shiftless children of wealth (gonna be's - gonna be a playwrite, gonna be a psychologist, gonna be an anthropologist, etc etc, all good things but...) that do no better than a child of poverty. Same problem - no parental leadership. Same symptoms - drug use, mistaking popular culture for real life, aimlessness, self centered, you name it.

Do you have solutions to offer? I really want to support good ideas.

 

[DeepFriar]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I know you understand that that does nothing of substance to answer the questions. That means you're ducking them on purpose. Sorry to see that.


I answered the exact comments in that post. Will we now start attacking each other personally?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
There is not a first tier university in this country, from Harvard on down, that even so much as looks at ability to pay until after they have offered a student entry. The policy has been to find the brightest and then get them the student aid they need. Which, of course, has its own set of problems like debt but it's not about having a rich daddy writing checks. It's one heck of a lot easier to get a good education than it is to get good medical care. But notice how one tends to follow the other. Good education, good job, good medical care. I didn't write the rules and neither did you. But I know it's up to you and me to win the game. If you don't want to play the game, you get run over by it. Yours and my choice.

So I've actually gone to one of those top tier universities, I have many friends/colleagues/acquaintances who have attended and worked at them at various levels, and I've spent the last several years of my life helping students get into them.

The VAST majority of students in those schools come from rich families. Needs-blind admission solves the tuition problem, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the structural issues.

Something to understand as a preface: You cannot imagine how competitive these schools are nowadays. I am confident saying that because I have yet to meet anyone who isn't blown away by it, including admissions folks themselves. Applicants who would have gotten in 20-ish years ago wouldn't even be considered now. Their applications would go straight in the trash. Even applicants who would have been fine 10 years ago would have a very hard time now. Applicants who could easily secure multiple top-tier acceptances back then would barely stand out in the top-tier applicant pool these days. It's insane, and it's getting worse.

In that context, rich families have unbelievable advantages. They can afford the extracurriculars, the tutors, the travel experiences, and the private schools or homes in top school districts. They have access to top-flight college counselors and consultants to help refine their kids' applications and advocate for them to admissions committees. They have enough connections to basically hand their kids jobs, internships, and nascent professional networks. When those kids are pushed to the breaking point by their insane schedules, they can afford the therapy and medication (it's sad and shocking how important a factor this turns out to be). And the really rich families can literally trade big donations for admissions.

Top tier applicant pools are flooded with applications from kids like that. Non-wealthy kids in those applicant pools are bringing knives to a gun fight. Heck yeah some of them get through. But if you're a betting man, good luck with those odds.

And when the school year begins, the few non-wealthy kids at the school often have a hard time staying in the game. Their perspectives and attitudes are so different, and they can afford to do so much less, that they are instantly pegged as outsiders in their peer groups. Just participating in campus life can be an uphill battle for them.

All this and we haven't even gotten into who gets how much aid. (Hint: college is still insanely expensive for most people.)

So, yeah. Needs-blind admission sounds nice, and it's a boon for the few non-wealthy kids who get in. But because fees are such a small fraction of what wealth buys in this game, all the financial aid in the world can do little to change the overall reality.


You'll be surprised to know that I agree with you on the structural difficulty, it's very real. But that's also a different argument than the earlier one about expense being the issue. Along with the things you're right about I would add cultural differences as well. Most major universities would have to hand out most of their admissions to Asian students unless they commit to keeping a balance. Fairfax County, VA (your tax dollars at work) would account for every available admission to the University of Virginia if academics were the only criterion.

But I submit to you that my earlier points are still correct. The game is the game is the game. And I notice that for all the excellent points you make I don't see a solution put forth. And I know why. There isn't one that does not involve lowering standards overall. But the world doesn't work that way and never has. Some people are going to outperform others no matter the reason why. Cries of "it ain't fair" are absolutely correct. And absolutely irrelevant. Hustle is all there is for those of us who didn't have the many other advantages. And one final thought. Whether from coal camp, ghetto, Indian reservation, immigrant sweat shop or juvenile detention center, parental expectations and discipline count for more than any other factor. I have seen too many shiftless children of wealth (gonna be's - gonna be a playwrite, gonna be a psychologist, gonna be an anthropologist, etc etc, all good things but...) that do no better than a child of poverty. Same problem - no parental leadership. Same symptoms - drug use, mistaking popular culture for real life, aimlessness, self centered, you name it.

Do you have solutions to offer? I really want to support good ideas.

You you do live in South, there is no doubt about it.