Noise vs wear?
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I don't have the keen sense of hearing that some claim to on here, but if I put a particular oil in my engine and it is 'noisier' I don't want it in there. Something is making that noise, and that is the metal to metal contact of my engine components. But some are ok with that if it is with an oil that they really want to believe is superior.
I feel the same way with the noise and what is making the noise approach. When I bought my diesel truck a few years back , I bought some conventional oil that was on sale at Costco and ran it for a short period of time. I have noticed increased noise levels with certain brand oils over the one I am currently using. Does it make a difference ? I guess one could get a UOA to find out if there is a difference.
Cheers
B
Cheers
B
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Nothing could be further then that , the noise from a diesel isn't from the engine at all !
OK, I'll bite. Where is the noise from again?
Fuel sprayed into the high temperature air has to evaporate, find a combustible air/fuel ratio, then combust (for the first time in that cycle)...when it does start to burn, there's quite a bit of fuel/air that is close to the combustion point, so a lot goes at once...the knock.
After that heat is input, the rest evaporates so much easier, and combustion progresses smoothly.
That's why they are louder cold, why Peugeot programme up to 7 different injection events in a cycle.
It's also why diesels are built so robustly, which is why they last so long.
Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Nothing could be further then that , the noise from a diesel isn't from the engine at all !
OK, I'll bite. Where is the noise from again?
Fuel sprayed into the high temperature air has to evaporate, find a combustible air/fuel ratio, then combust (for the first time in that cycle)...when it does start to burn, there's quite a bit of fuel/air that is close to the combustion point, so a lot goes at once...the knock.
After that heat is input, the rest evaporates so much easier, and combustion progresses smoothly.
That's why they are louder cold, why Peugeot programme up to 7 different injection events in a cycle.
It's also why diesels are built so robustly, which is why they last so long.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Lets do a mental experiment: lets imagine brass (or other wind) musical instruments. I don't see noise vs wear correlation there, do you?
lets repeat the mental experiment and tap that brass instrument with a small hammer.
Still making noise, just some noises are "right" and others shouldn't be there. GM piston slap is indicative of noise that shouldn't be there, just doesn't cause enough damage to typically be the failure mode of the engine.
Lets do a mental experiment: lets imagine brass (or other wind) musical instruments. I don't see noise vs wear correlation there, do you?
lets repeat the mental experiment and tap that brass instrument with a small hammer.
Still making noise, just some noises are "right" and others shouldn't be there. GM piston slap is indicative of noise that shouldn't be there, just doesn't cause enough damage to typically be the failure mode of the engine.
Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I'm sure straight 50 weight would make a lot of engines quieter than 5W30 on a hot summer day. I bet the 50 weight would show higher wear numbers.
I'm sure it would too .
Great blanket statement and refers to "wear numbers" which if you ask an expert "wear metals" in a cheap used oil analysis are meaningless unless a trend has been established.
Hillarious to say the least.
Originally Posted By: bvance554
I don't have the keen sense of hearing that some claim to on here, but if I put a particular oil in my engine and it is 'noisier' I don't want it in there. Something is making that noise, and that is the metal to metal contact of my engine components. But some are ok with that if it is with an oil that they really want to believe is superior.
Ummmmm no.
Different oils transfer noise better. That's is.
Originally Posted By: Boczech
I feel the same way with the noise and what is making the noise approach. When I bought my diesel truck a few years back , I bought some conventional oil that was on sale at Costco and ran it for a short period of time. I have noticed increased noise levels with certain brand oils over the one I am currently using. Does it make a difference ? I guess one could get a UOA to find out if there is a difference.
Cheers
B
A typical cheap used oil analysis tests the condition on the oil and whether or not there is contamination. They are in NO WAY a gauge to measure wear.
So if your paying for one for wear data you'll be throwing away money because a typical cheap used oil analysis isn't meant nor is it accurate as far as testing or measuring wear.
Now if you've got 10 of them done and there is a trend that wear metals are increasing dramatically then that could be an indication of a problem.
We've got a member with a grand national that had many used oil analysis done and had a catastrophic failure yet the used oil analysis showed no issues and we've got members here who's used oil analysis showed double digit wear metals since new and the engines were still running strong at sale/trade in with over 200k miles.
So the whole "wear metals" on a used oil analysis is useless unless you are doing them at every oil change and establishing trends as well as using the tbn/tan data to extend the oci.
Just doing 1 used oil analysis is absolutely pointless. It's like watching a movie and picking a single picture frame then trying to infer the entire story from that single frame
There are some here who feel they can use the force and can tell you all sorts of things from a single used oil analysis. Those are the same folks that obviously aren't listening when actual experts with 50 years in the field explain otherwise.
I'm sure wear could be measured by monitoring wear metals however a 30 dollar used oil analysis isn't using equipment sophisticated enough to measure these metals in a truly accurate and meaningful way.
There is no doubt in my mind that in the same sump full of oil if all of it is drained and a 100 samples are taken the wear metals measured will be different in each sample.
And let's get real here. The wear metals measured in a used oil analysis are so small there is zero chance of them doing any damage however the particulate that can damage an engine are too big to even measure,so those particles aren't even included in the ppm count posted on a used oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I'm sure straight 50 weight would make a lot of engines quieter than 5W30 on a hot summer day. I bet the 50 weight would show higher wear numbers.
I'm sure it would too .
Great blanket statement and refers to "wear numbers" which if you ask an expert "wear metals" in a cheap used oil analysis are meaningless unless a trend has been established.
Hillarious to say the least.
Originally Posted By: bvance554
I don't have the keen sense of hearing that some claim to on here, but if I put a particular oil in my engine and it is 'noisier' I don't want it in there. Something is making that noise, and that is the metal to metal contact of my engine components. But some are ok with that if it is with an oil that they really want to believe is superior.
Ummmmm no.
Different oils transfer noise better. That's is.
Originally Posted By: Boczech
I feel the same way with the noise and what is making the noise approach. When I bought my diesel truck a few years back , I bought some conventional oil that was on sale at Costco and ran it for a short period of time. I have noticed increased noise levels with certain brand oils over the one I am currently using. Does it make a difference ? I guess one could get a UOA to find out if there is a difference.
Cheers
B
A typical cheap used oil analysis tests the condition on the oil and whether or not there is contamination. They are in NO WAY a gauge to measure wear.
So if your paying for one for wear data you'll be throwing away money because a typical cheap used oil analysis isn't meant nor is it accurate as far as testing or measuring wear.
Now if you've got 10 of them done and there is a trend that wear metals are increasing dramatically then that could be an indication of a problem.
We've got a member with a grand national that had many used oil analysis done and had a catastrophic failure yet the used oil analysis showed no issues and we've got members here who's used oil analysis showed double digit wear metals since new and the engines were still running strong at sale/trade in with over 200k miles.
So the whole "wear metals" on a used oil analysis is useless unless you are doing them at every oil change and establishing trends as well as using the tbn/tan data to extend the oci.
Just doing 1 used oil analysis is absolutely pointless. It's like watching a movie and picking a single picture frame then trying to infer the entire story from that single frame
There are some here who feel they can use the force and can tell you all sorts of things from a single used oil analysis. Those are the same folks that obviously aren't listening when actual experts with 50 years in the field explain otherwise.
I'm sure wear could be measured by monitoring wear metals however a 30 dollar used oil analysis isn't using equipment sophisticated enough to measure these metals in a truly accurate and meaningful way.
There is no doubt in my mind that in the same sump full of oil if all of it is drained and a 100 samples are taken the wear metals measured will be different in each sample.
And let's get real here. The wear metals measured in a used oil analysis are so small there is zero chance of them doing any damage however the particulate that can damage an engine are too big to even measure,so those particles aren't even included in the ppm count posted on a used oil analysis.
Originally Posted By: nitehawk55
A lot of people think that noise is from the engine and imagine pistons slapping and the like . Nothing could be further then that , the noise from a diesel isn't from the engine at all !
Yeah, people like that are idiots, we all know the noise comes from the carpet mats.
A lot of people think that noise is from the engine and imagine pistons slapping and the like . Nothing could be further then that , the noise from a diesel isn't from the engine at all !
Yeah, people like that are idiots, we all know the noise comes from the carpet mats.
^^^Great post, Clevy. Folks around here revere the UOA but you stated the best factoid: pretty much useless as one only.
These days many DI gas engines sound like lil diesels, just
a-clattering. Noise is a fact of life, we just better figure out whether it's a significant noise or not.
And that is the difficult part...
These days many DI gas engines sound like lil diesels, just
a-clattering. Noise is a fact of life, we just better figure out whether it's a significant noise or not.
And that is the difficult part...
there is ,sadly manufacturer learned a long time ago how to make quiet oil ,so noise level isn't an indication that an oil is doing its job or not!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^Great post, Clevy.
+1
Too many BITOG-ers read something on here and then just run with it.
^^^Great post, Clevy.
+1
Too many BITOG-ers read something on here and then just run with it.
Originally Posted By: Lex94
A noisy engine means it will last longer...Kinda like a woman.
As they used to say, "a tappy valve is a happy valve..."
A noisy engine means it will last longer...Kinda like a woman.
As they used to say, "a tappy valve is a happy valve..."
Noisy engine sounds like a reason to buy a new vehicle.
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I don't think different brand oils of the same viscosity actually "sound" different. I never have believed it, never will. The halo effect is strong. "I changed something, therefore I MUST hear something a little different." Combine that with the fact that fresh oil is a different viscosity than long-used oil, and you get these reports of engines "sounding" or "feeling" different.
For it to be a fair comparison, you have to remember EXACTLY how the M1 you put in 7,000 miles ago sounded, and compare that ancient memory to the PUP that you're listening to today. NOT compare yow the 7k mile used, hot, oil sounded just before you opened the drain plug to how the fresh, cooler oil sounds when you first start the engine after an oil change. Oh, and the engine block temperature, oil temparature, humidity, air temp, and air pressure all have to be the same today as they were when you were listening to your fresh M1 7000 miles ago, too.
In short- there are SO many other things that are SO much more likely to make an engine sound a little different from one day to the next... yet so many people are so willing to credit/blame the fresh oil. Just doesn't make sense.
For it to be a fair comparison, you have to remember EXACTLY how the M1 you put in 7,000 miles ago sounded, and compare that ancient memory to the PUP that you're listening to today. NOT compare yow the 7k mile used, hot, oil sounded just before you opened the drain plug to how the fresh, cooler oil sounds when you first start the engine after an oil change. Oh, and the engine block temperature, oil temparature, humidity, air temp, and air pressure all have to be the same today as they were when you were listening to your fresh M1 7000 miles ago, too.
In short- there are SO many other things that are SO much more likely to make an engine sound a little different from one day to the next... yet so many people are so willing to credit/blame the fresh oil. Just doesn't make sense.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Lets do a mental experiment: lets imagine brass (or other wind) musical instruments. I don't see noise vs wear correlation there, do you?
lets repeat the mental experiment and tap that brass instrument with a small hammer.
Still making noise, just some noises are "right" and others shouldn't be there. GM piston slap is indicative of noise that shouldn't be there, just doesn't cause enough damage to typically be the failure mode of the engine.
And I strive to run my LS1 to keep it out of piston slap as much as possible. Cold start piston slap in my engine is inevitable, but I have found if I rev the engine to 1700 rpm, the slap goes away. Then when the engine is up to operating temperature, piston slap at idle is barely audible. That is, until I put GC in it. Now the engine has loud piston slap at idle, even when at operating temperature. My theory is the higher viscosity prevents it from spraying on the cylinder walls at 800 rpm idle. Revving to 1700 still quiets it. The engine never sounds quieter than when I come in from a lapping session. Is it because my ears are desensitized from the high level of noise on track, or because the pistons are hot and have closed up the bore clearance?
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Lets do a mental experiment: lets imagine brass (or other wind) musical instruments. I don't see noise vs wear correlation there, do you?
lets repeat the mental experiment and tap that brass instrument with a small hammer.
Still making noise, just some noises are "right" and others shouldn't be there. GM piston slap is indicative of noise that shouldn't be there, just doesn't cause enough damage to typically be the failure mode of the engine.
And I strive to run my LS1 to keep it out of piston slap as much as possible. Cold start piston slap in my engine is inevitable, but I have found if I rev the engine to 1700 rpm, the slap goes away. Then when the engine is up to operating temperature, piston slap at idle is barely audible. That is, until I put GC in it. Now the engine has loud piston slap at idle, even when at operating temperature. My theory is the higher viscosity prevents it from spraying on the cylinder walls at 800 rpm idle. Revving to 1700 still quiets it. The engine never sounds quieter than when I come in from a lapping session. Is it because my ears are desensitized from the high level of noise on track, or because the pistons are hot and have closed up the bore clearance?
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I don't think different brand oils of the same viscosity actually "sound" different. I never have believed it, never will. The halo effect is strong. "I changed something, therefore I MUST hear something a little different." Combine that with the fact that fresh oil is a different viscosity than long-used oil, and you get these reports of engines "sounding" or "feeling" different.
For it to be a fair comparison, you have to remember EXACTLY how the M1 you put in 7,000 miles ago sounded, and compare that ancient memory to the PUP that you're listening to today. NOT compare yow the 7k mile used, hot, oil sounded just before you opened the drain plug to how the fresh, cooler oil sounds when you first start the engine after an oil change. Oh, and the engine block temperature, oil temparature, humidity, air temp, and air pressure all have to be the same today as they were when you were listening to your fresh M1 7000 miles ago, too.
In short- there are SO many other things that are SO much more likely to make an engine sound a little different from one day to the next... yet so many people are so willing to credit/blame the fresh oil. Just doesn't make sense.
I have to agree with this post.
I don't think different brand oils of the same viscosity actually "sound" different. I never have believed it, never will. The halo effect is strong. "I changed something, therefore I MUST hear something a little different." Combine that with the fact that fresh oil is a different viscosity than long-used oil, and you get these reports of engines "sounding" or "feeling" different.
For it to be a fair comparison, you have to remember EXACTLY how the M1 you put in 7,000 miles ago sounded, and compare that ancient memory to the PUP that you're listening to today. NOT compare yow the 7k mile used, hot, oil sounded just before you opened the drain plug to how the fresh, cooler oil sounds when you first start the engine after an oil change. Oh, and the engine block temperature, oil temparature, humidity, air temp, and air pressure all have to be the same today as they were when you were listening to your fresh M1 7000 miles ago, too.
In short- there are SO many other things that are SO much more likely to make an engine sound a little different from one day to the next... yet so many people are so willing to credit/blame the fresh oil. Just doesn't make sense.
I have to agree with this post.
That being said, in my dads 2006 VW Golf 2.0TDiPD I changed out the Quantum Platinum 5w40 that I put in there about 1000 miles ago to PETRONAS Syntium 3000AV 5w40 (because we got it in the workshop as a replacement for the Quantum and I wanted to try it) and the engine feels completely different, so much so that it was my dad who told me it felt smoother and quieter. I jumped in it to see if he was imagining it and sure enough it feels smoother and quieter. We usually do about 3-4k ODI's, after about 5k and the engine starts to feel noticeably rougher.
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liker I said ,some oil are making engine noisier but are better for the engine ,other oil are more silent making the engine yet when you look at blackstone analysis the wear is so high its insane.there is no way aside form getting a db level.ya kind of hard hence why most rely on blackstone
I go by this logic; sound comes from valvetrain and if you hear excessive noise when motor is fully warm i think you should go grade thicker. All you need to do is to compare engine noise when it achieves 60*c and 95*c. If sound does not change, oil is thick enough, but if thicks louder when fully warm oil is too thin. This is why motor starts to be louder when oil is getting older. Oil share and get thinner. Motor clearances are biggest when it's cold, so when it's warm there should't be any noise.
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If the noisiness bothers you, run the "quieter" oil. The great thing about off-the-shelf oils these days is they're all excellent quality and you really aren't making any sacrifices by switching to the one that makes the car run quieter.
I've always been of the opinion that the noise isn't really indicative of anything, and is highly subjective.
I've always been of the opinion that the noise isn't really indicative of anything, and is highly subjective.
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