NOACK % of 20 and 30 wt GP III oils, doubt PC

[CATERHAM]

Generally the lighter the oil the higher the volatility.
Predictably a 10w30 has lower NOACK % than a 5w30 and a 5w30 would be better (lower %) than a 0w30 or 5W-20 etc.
Using PP as an example, their NOACK percentages trend in that consistent pattern:
10W-30 is 9.7%
5w30 is 12.5%
5W-20 is 13.2%
0W-20 is 14.0%

Petro Canada's Supreme synthetic, a GP III oil doesn't publish their NOACK figures but fellow member 21Rouge inquired about them and received an email with the figures for their 5w30 @ 12.1% and 9.9% for their 0W-30. We've questioned the numbers (are they transposed?) and a junior tech repeated that's what they are.
BTW, the viscosities for these two oils are almost identical;
40C vis is 58.5 and 58.7 cSt for the 0w30 and 5w30 respectively. 100C vis is 10.6 and 10.5 cSt.

I think the lower NOACK % for the 0w30 at 9.9 is a mistake; there is no way it can be lower for what are virtually to identical oils.

Any opinions?

 

[D Bone]

Isn't the NOACK of GC 0w30 better then the rest of Castrol's 30wts?

 

[CATERHAM]

Perhaps yes, but it is a GP IV/V oil and is heavier with a 100C vis of 12.1 cSt. The other 30 wt Syntec's are GP III oils.

 

[addyguy]

To get the '0W-30' weight, they're going to have to use more stable/higher quality bastock than a 5w30/10W-30, b/c of the larger spread.

Possibly might use small amount of ester/PAO to achieve this.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Possibly might use small amount of ester/PAO to achieve this.


Except on the PC website the only base oils listed are GRP II/II+ and III...see here:

http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/277.aspx

I would imagine if they used any ester/PAO there would be some reference to this.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: D Bone
Isn't the NOACK of GC 0w30 better then the rest of Castrol's 30wts?


Sorry to bend us a little OT but does anyone know the specific NOACK of GC. I have searched BITOG with no success.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I think the lower NOACK % for the 0w30 at 9.9 is a mistake; there is no way it can be lower for what are virtually to identical oils.

Any opinions?

I think it's very plausible that those two oils are blended differently, despite the similar specs. The 0w30 must have a better base stock.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Except on the PC website the only base oils listed are GRP II/II+ and III...see here:

http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/277.aspx

I would imagine if they used any ester/PAO there would be some reference to this.

I think that list is just what they make in-house. They could easily be buying ester/PAO base stocks from other companies.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Except on the PC website the only base oils listed are GRP II/II+ and III...see here:

http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/277.aspx

I would imagine if they used any ester/PAO there would be some reference to this.

I think that list is just what they make in-house. They could easily be buying ester/PAO base stocks from other companies.


Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Except on the PC website the only base oils listed are GRP II/II+ and III...see here:

http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/277.aspx

I would imagine if they used any ester/PAO there would be some reference to this.

I think that list is just what they make in-house. They could easily be buying ester/PAO base stocks from other companies.


The MSDS for both PC grades say the same thing,
"Mixture of severely hydro treated and hydro cracked base oil"

There's also no difference in pricing apparently.

 

[Gary Allan]

Bruce or Mola would be the ones to answer this. I tend to agree with CATERHAM.

Bruce's last evolution of 0w-10 reportedly had only 6% volatility. It was PAO and some double secret probation stealth polymer.

 

[Gary Allan]

What's funny is that even the XL 5w-20 has 10.7 (group III) and the 0w-30SSO is 8.7 and the 0w-20 ASM is 8.6. (PAO)

The rest of the XL line is in the 6.x range in the 30 weights. The 10w-40 is 5.7.

 

[CATERHAM]

Turns out the 12.2% for the 5w30 was incorrect according to a senior "Suncor" engineer. The correct NOACK figure is 9.2% for that grade.

But I requested and received the HTHS vis and NOACK percentage for their 0W-20 and 5W-20 syn oils and got a similar disparity.
If the figures are to be believed the 5W-20 product is an obsolete product:

5W-20 HTHS 2.6 cP NOACK 11.5% 40C vis 46.2 cSt 100C 8.5 cSt
0W-20 HTHS 2.7 cP NOACK 10.2% 40C vis 46.6 cSt 100C 8.7 cSt

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Generally the lighter the oil the higher the volatility.
Predictably a 10w30 has lower NOACK % than a 5w30 and a 5w30 would be better (lower %) than a 0w30 or 5W-20 etc.
Using PP as an example, their NOACK percentages trend in that consistent pattern:
10W-30 is 9.7%
5w30 is 12.5%
5W-20 is 13.2%
0W-20 is 14.0%

Petro Canada's Supreme synthetic, a GP III oil doesn't publish their NOACK figures but fellow member 21Rouge inquired about them and received an email with the figures for their 5w30 @ 12.1% and 9.9% for their 0W-30. We've questioned the numbers (are they transposed?) and a junior tech repeated that's what they are.
BTW, the viscosities for these two oils are almost identical;
40C vis is 58.5 and 58.7 cSt for the 0w30 and 5w30 respectively. 100C vis is 10.6 and 10.5 cSt.

I think the lower NOACK % for the 0w30 at 9.9 is a mistake; there is no way it can be lower for what are virtually to identical oils.

Any opinions?


In all candor, it's supposition on my part, but I don't think that there's a mistake there. I would surmise that in order to pass the standard for the 0w-30, they may simply have had to use a different blend of base oils. That could account for the delta right there.

You ask about how two oils that are "nearly identical" could have differing Noack numbers, but look at the oils on your list of PP flavors. There's a substantial, though admittedly small, delta there between oils which are arguably as similar as the 0w30 and 5w30 you're asking about. Look at the PP 0w-20 and 5w-20, and the 5w and 10w30 oils.

On a slightly different tack, I'm beginning to think that the application of Noack numbers to real life situations is a dicey proposition at best. I suspect it's a very "non-linear" issue. By that, I mean that if your engine creates conditions that keep your oil below the point at which evaporation becomes a problem, you'd see nothing, but as soon as you exceed that point, you'll suddenly get oil disappearing, literally into the air.

I'm on my third fill of PP 0w-20, which has a "scary looking" Noack number, and yet, I've seen not even a hint of a trace that I'm losing any oil to evaporation (or anything else) over a 5k OCI. Go figure.

 

[CATERHAM]

As I mentioned in my last post, as it turned out there was indeed a mistake in the NOACK percentage as initially reported by a Petro-Canada technician. The 5w30 grade's supposedly correct figure is 9.2% vs the 12.2% that was provided to us initially.

This post wasn't about the value of NOACK per se but rather the reliability of a companies figures. That being said, I agree it's not a particularly important metric where high oil temperatures are not seen.

 

[jstutz]

10W-30 is 9.7%
5w30 is 12.5%
5W-20 is 13.2%
0W-20 is 14.0%

quick question, why does the 10w30 have better numbers than 5w30. Is it just the little higher viscosity, or less VII. Its obvious that as they get thinner they get worse. sorry for the dumb question. So for a hot engine like a small lawn mower or something would you choose the 10w30 based on this number?

 

[d00df00d]

As I understand, all else equal, a higher VI base stock will tend to have higher volatility.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As I understand, all else equal, a higher VI base stock will tend to have higher volatility.


Yes, and a lighter base stock of the same oil family will have proportionally higher volatility.

 

[oilyriser]

What's with the weirdness on their website?

"SUPREME SYNTHETIC [more info ]
5W-20, HR555, 0W-30, 5w30, 10w30"

 

[addyguy]

I've asked, and even THEY don't know what 'HR555' is!

Although, I suspect it was a 'code' until they got 0W-20 onto the PDDS - that's the grade that is missing in the list, but in ON the PDS.