I just got four tires and an alignment today. I was a little dismayed to find that no camber adjustments had been made. The person who did the alignment had gone home, so there was nobody to have a conversation with. The guy at the counter didn't know if the adjustment bolts were stuck or there was no adjustment. Anybody know whether camber is adjustable on these things?
No camber adjustment on 1999 Passat?
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IIRC camber is adjusted with a toe shim on these cars.
These shims come in different thickness depending on the amount of correction needed.
If it was within spec there is no need to adjust, chances are it was within specs.
Did they give you a printout?
These shims come in different thickness depending on the amount of correction needed.
If it was within spec there is no need to adjust, chances are it was within specs.
Did they give you a printout?
The before and after print-out should show what if any camber adjustment was needed.
The print-out showed that it was out-of-spec. It looked as if they didn't touch the camber front and back. I wasn't happy and said that I didn't want to pay for the job. They took the charge off the bill. It looks as if the only thing they touched was toe.
The front will either need eccentric bolts or an adjustable upper mount. The rear will probably need an adjustable control arm or a full contact shim.
Not sure if it is your body style or the one after but some of these require a special jig to do the front alignment, it requires the vehicle be lifted to a specific height and toe adjusted while on the jig. When I did alignments we always sent the customer to the dealer for VWs and Audis that needed that jig. It is for the cars with the dual ball joints on the lower control arm.
Not sure if it is your body style or the one after but some of these require a special jig to do the front alignment, it requires the vehicle be lifted to a specific height and toe adjusted while on the jig. When I did alignments we always sent the customer to the dealer for VWs and Audis that needed that jig. It is for the cars with the dual ball joints on the lower control arm.
Not 100% sure but I think 91-99 uses these not eccentric bolts.
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
Originally Posted By: Trav
Not 100% sure but I think 91-99 uses these not eccentric bolts.
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
That could very well be on the rear.
Either way they should have called the OP and said to adjust camber it would require additional parts and additional labor instead of just setting toe and letting it go.
Not 100% sure but I think 91-99 uses these not eccentric bolts.
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
That could very well be on the rear.
Either way they should have called the OP and said to adjust camber it would require additional parts and additional labor instead of just setting toe and letting it go.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Trav
Not 100% sure but I think 91-99 uses these not eccentric bolts.
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
That could very well be on the rear.
Either way they should have called the OP and said to adjust camber it would require additional parts and additional labor instead of just setting toe and letting it go.
Agreed. That's what I said. They should have called me to discuss the situation.
I see that Moog makes a bolt and wedge kit for the front. Should I buy that and bring it to the shop (different place) next time?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Not 100% sure but I think 91-99 uses these not eccentric bolts.
http://www.drivewire.com/vehicle/1999-volkswagen-passat/alignment-kit/
That could very well be on the rear.
Either way they should have called the OP and said to adjust camber it would require additional parts and additional labor instead of just setting toe and letting it go.
Agreed. That's what I said. They should have called me to discuss the situation.
I see that Moog makes a bolt and wedge kit for the front. Should I buy that and bring it to the shop (different place) next time?
This is what I pulled from Audi World, referring to A4s and Passats:
"These vehicles get the award for the most complicated suspension geometry that's on the road today. The 4-link front suspension has more arms and joints than an octopus (two upper and two lower ball joints on each side, with split upper control arms on top), and uses a "virtual steering axis" to maintain zero caster regardless of the steering angle.
The idea behind this unusual setup is to cancel out all torque steer and to provide extremely precise handling. It works great, but requires special alignment software to handle the caster and SAI readings. So if you haven't updated your alignment equipment since 1997 when this suspension was introduced, you're going to get weird caster and SAI readings.
Actually, you don't need caster or SAI readings because they have no meaning on this suspension. There are camber specifications, but no factory adjustments for correcting individual camber if it is out of specifications. Even so, you can shift the engine cradle right or left to add camber to one side and subtract it from the other.
Toe is adjustable, but there are actually two different toe settings and you have to use the correct procedure or you'll get yourself into trouble. Ordinary toe, which Audi called "unladen toe," is measured in the usual way. If any corrections are needed, they must be made at the inboard end of the tie rod, not the outboard end. Both ends of the tie rod are adjustable, but the outer end is not for ordinary toe adjustments. It changes the angle between the tie rod and steering arm, which Audi refers to as "raised toe." Adjusting this second toe angle requires a special tools (VAG 1925 & VAG 1925/3) and a special procedure.
To check or adjust raised toe, the VAG 125 tool is attached to the subframe. The vehicle is then raised and lowered on the VAG 1925/3 adapter tool. The tool holds the suspension in a slightly raised position so toe can be measured again. There should be 12 degrees more toe-in on each side than before. If not, the outer tie rod end needs to be adjusted until the specified difference in toe readings is obtained."
Looks unusually complicated.
"These vehicles get the award for the most complicated suspension geometry that's on the road today. The 4-link front suspension has more arms and joints than an octopus (two upper and two lower ball joints on each side, with split upper control arms on top), and uses a "virtual steering axis" to maintain zero caster regardless of the steering angle.
The idea behind this unusual setup is to cancel out all torque steer and to provide extremely precise handling. It works great, but requires special alignment software to handle the caster and SAI readings. So if you haven't updated your alignment equipment since 1997 when this suspension was introduced, you're going to get weird caster and SAI readings.
Actually, you don't need caster or SAI readings because they have no meaning on this suspension. There are camber specifications, but no factory adjustments for correcting individual camber if it is out of specifications. Even so, you can shift the engine cradle right or left to add camber to one side and subtract it from the other.
Toe is adjustable, but there are actually two different toe settings and you have to use the correct procedure or you'll get yourself into trouble. Ordinary toe, which Audi called "unladen toe," is measured in the usual way. If any corrections are needed, they must be made at the inboard end of the tie rod, not the outboard end. Both ends of the tie rod are adjustable, but the outer end is not for ordinary toe adjustments. It changes the angle between the tie rod and steering arm, which Audi refers to as "raised toe." Adjusting this second toe angle requires a special tools (VAG 1925 & VAG 1925/3) and a special procedure.
To check or adjust raised toe, the VAG 125 tool is attached to the subframe. The vehicle is then raised and lowered on the VAG 1925/3 adapter tool. The tool holds the suspension in a slightly raised position so toe can be measured again. There should be 12 degrees more toe-in on each side than before. If not, the outer tie rod end needs to be adjusted until the specified difference in toe readings is obtained."
Looks unusually complicated.
Ya that procedure is why we would punt to the dealer. It makes no sense for a shop to drop thousands of dollars on tools that can only service a few models unless it is a VW/Audi heavy area.
You got a typical "TOE-AND-GO" allignment. To much work to do it right when there is another unsuspecting paying customer right behind you. They think as long as it drives straight and the steering wheel is staight, you won't know the diffference.
Toe is the last angle you touch, as all other adjustment usually knock it out of adj.
They have the best laser equipment to measure with, but can't turn a bolt or add a shime! Lazy!
Toe is the last angle you touch, as all other adjustment usually knock it out of adj.
They have the best laser equipment to measure with, but can't turn a bolt or add a shime! Lazy!
Originally Posted By: gregmp
You got a typical "TOE-AND-GO" allignment. To much work to do it right when there is another unsuspecting paying customer right behind you. They think as long as it drives straight and the steering wheel is staight, you won't know the diffference.
Toe is the last angle you touch, as all other adjustment usually knock it out of adj.
They have the best laser equipment to measure with, but can't turn a bolt or add a shime! Lazy!
Not lazy but greedy. And it's not an uncommon event in the car repair industry. Sometimes I wonder how many of these places stay in business. Total failure of the theory of the invisible hand.
You got a typical "TOE-AND-GO" allignment. To much work to do it right when there is another unsuspecting paying customer right behind you. They think as long as it drives straight and the steering wheel is staight, you won't know the diffference.
Toe is the last angle you touch, as all other adjustment usually knock it out of adj.
They have the best laser equipment to measure with, but can't turn a bolt or add a shime! Lazy!
Not lazy but greedy. And it's not an uncommon event in the car repair industry. Sometimes I wonder how many of these places stay in business. Total failure of the theory of the invisible hand.
I don't see how/why special alignment tools or software is needed.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
I just ran into this issue this week.
I got an alignment after installing new tires on my Sonata. I had a coupon for Midas, so I went there to get the alignment.
I noticed they only adjusted the toe. The person there said only toe was adjustable, which I thought couldn't be correct.
After I left I did some research and found out it takes kits to adjust the camber, which I know is the case in many models. I wish they would have asked me. If it was a reasonable price, I would have paid to have the new kits installed.
The toe was way out of spec, though.
I got an alignment after installing new tires on my Sonata. I had a coupon for Midas, so I went there to get the alignment.
I noticed they only adjusted the toe. The person there said only toe was adjustable, which I thought couldn't be correct.
After I left I did some research and found out it takes kits to adjust the camber, which I know is the case in many models. I wish they would have asked me. If it was a reasonable price, I would have paid to have the new kits installed.
The toe was way out of spec, though.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I don't see how/why special alignment tools or software is needed.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
As JHZR2 explained it with regard to his w123 benz, there's a preload on the bushings one gets while driving down the road, and this needs to be simulated for an alignment.
I have to imagine any force would depend on both speed and the stickiness of the tires.
I don't see how/why special alignment tools or software is needed.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
As JHZR2 explained it with regard to his w123 benz, there's a preload on the bushings one gets while driving down the road, and this needs to be simulated for an alignment.
I have to imagine any force would depend on both speed and the stickiness of the tires.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I don't see how/why special alignment tools or software is needed.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
It is not a standard suspension. You adjust the tie rods on both ends depending on how many mm the vehicle is raised. Look at the front suspension of a early 2000s Passat or Audi and notice that there are 4 ball joints per side.
I don't see how/why special alignment tools or software is needed.
You are measuring the wheels/tires, and the machine does not know if there is Play-Doh holding them there.
Of course, adjustment is always idiosyncratic.
It is not a standard suspension. You adjust the tie rods on both ends depending on how many mm the vehicle is raised. Look at the front suspension of a early 2000s Passat or Audi and notice that there are 4 ball joints per side.
Is this a 2wd or AWD Passat?
On the back of some 2wd Passats, there is no way to put a shim in the rear axle for allignment, you have to buy the whole thing.
AWD Passats have a full independent rear suspension, but I see so few that I don't remember how it all worked.
On the back of some 2wd Passats, there is no way to put a shim in the rear axle for allignment, you have to buy the whole thing.
AWD Passats have a full independent rear suspension, but I see so few that I don't remember how it all worked.
So I went to a specialty shop yesterday. I went to the dealer first, but they were going to be over $200 if they slid the subframe over to adjust the camber.
As artificialist said, there is no adjustment on the rear (ours is 2wd). This car was hit in the back, so the rear axle was replaced once. The tech said that things were a little out of square (dog-tracking) because of this.
He ended up just redoing the toe. The camber was still off a little, but sliding the subframe wasn't worth it. We would have gained .1 degree on one side and lost .1 on the other.
As artificialist said, there is no adjustment on the rear (ours is 2wd). This car was hit in the back, so the rear axle was replaced once. The tech said that things were a little out of square (dog-tracking) because of this.
He ended up just redoing the toe. The camber was still off a little, but sliding the subframe wasn't worth it. We would have gained .1 degree on one side and lost .1 on the other.
Elongating the top strut mount slot is fast and easy, and allows camber adjustment.
It is a better option than skinny 'crash bolts'.
It is a better option than skinny 'crash bolts'.
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