No 0w- in high performance engines?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Instead of trying to get the best performance on the margins from group 3 oils with low additives, kick that stuff to the curb and use oils that are polar, stable branched chain, denser, with high aw/ep additives in your non di tubro high performance application. Of course general questions don't really do anything but open a can worms, maybe you should narrow down to the engine and application you really have in mind.


You give many reasons for members to doubt you know what your talking about.

He had me wondering...

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
https://lubes.mobil.com/Canada-English-LCW/carengineoils_oems-porsche.aspx


Right off hand I'd tell you not to worry.

That link mentions that M-1 meets A40 oil specs. Wonder which besides Mobil-1 0w40 equals that spec.

Castrol Edge 0w-40 is another easily obtainable oil that meets Porsche A40 spec. Pennzoil Euro 5w-40 and 0w-40 also.

 

[buster]

I don't know the answer to this. I've always thought that lower spread, little to no VII's was ideal for a racing oil. However, Mobil 1 Racing oils come in 0w5, 0w10, 0w20, 0w30 and 0w50. Mobil has a tremendouse amount of track experience and data. Take a look at their 0w50, it has a HT/HS of only 3.8, clearly by design.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-racing-oil

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-racing-product-guide.pdf

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted by talest
Originally Posted by dlundblad
0w40 would perform quite well in many high performance engines.


But is it necessary?


Why not?

It's the same price as other name brand synthetics.

Don't make me split frog hairs, man. Do you want to discuss sales and rebates next?

 

[AP9]

I want to see complete, through, unbiased test data. Of course, good luck with that.....
The skeptic in me can't help but believe that some oils that carry manufacturer certifications did not actually pass every test as written with the specified acceptance criteria. Marginal test results could be "judged" or overriden if there's enough money coming in on the commercial backside. You know OEMs (well, some more than others) value the bean-counters more than the engineers.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Instead of trying to get the best performance on the margins from group 3 oils with low additives, kick that stuff to the curb and use oils that are polar, stable branched chain, denser, with high aw/ep additives in your non di tubro high performance application. Of course general questions don't really do anything but open a can worms, maybe you should narrow down to the engine and application you really have in mind.


You give many reasons for members to doubt you know what your talking about.

He had me wondering...


I was going to ask why or where is the data to support such a statement.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Leo99
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Instead of trying to get the best performance on the margins from group 3 oils with low additives, kick that stuff to the curb and use oils that are polar, stable branched chain, denser, with high aw/ep additives in your non di tubro high performance application. Of course general questions don't really do anything but open a can worms, maybe you should narrow down to the engine and application you really have in mind.


You give many reasons for members to doubt you know what your talking about.

He had me wondering...


I was going to ask why or where is the data to support such a statement.





540RAT. One of a few who come here spouting such stuff.

 

[s2krunner]

I have used M1 0w40 for my two Evolution 9 & X. One was 350 awhp and other one made 450 awhp. M1 0w40 was perfect choice for thicker side and good amount addictive also price.

Today, I just picked up Castrol 0w40 for my stock Camaro SS.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by ChristianReske
Gentleman,

i am tired of some kind of discussions in some other Forums and need some knowledge and hard facts.

Most people say "Dont use 0w- oils in high performance engines!" (e.g. my Honda S2000 with 9.000 RPM redline)

Why? They say:
- The VI Improvers shear down quickly, the oil getting thin fast.
- The 5w- and 10W- oils are more robust, they can take more pressure (in the bearings for example).
- The 5w- and 10w oils have a higher HTHS. The 0w HTHS is maybe to low.
- Use of 0w- oils in cars like Porsche, AMG, Nissan GTR is just becasue the oil companys and the manufactures have made a deal.

My point of view:
- If the oil thins out because the VI improvers shears, i just make shorter OCIs.
- 0w protects the engine better "all-around" because it also reduces the cold start wear.
- Oil has been improved over the years, and oils like Mobil 1 0w-40 have shown that they perform extremly well.
- A HTHS above 3.5 should be good enough for almost any application.
- 0w- Oils perform well in cars like Porsche, Nissan GTR, AMG and so on.


I dont like to open a can of worms, but i need some education. Especially the points "HTHS" and "VI Improvers shear down" interesst me.


Currernt M3/M4 uses 0w30 in the US

 

[DV0993]

Originally Posted by ChristianReske
Gentleman,

i am tired of some kind of discussions in some other Forums and need some knowledge and hard facts.

Most people say "Dont use 0w- oils in high performance engines!" (e.g. my Honda S2000 with 9.000 RPM redline)

Why? They say:
- The VI Improvers shear down quickly, the oil getting thin fast.
- The 5w- and 10W- oils are more robust, they can take more pressure (in the bearings for example).
- The 5w- and 10w oils have a higher HTHS. The 0w HTHS is maybe to low.
- Use of 0w- oils in cars like Porsche, AMG, Nissan GTR is just becasue the oil companys and the manufactures have made a deal.

My point of view:
- If the oil thins out because the VI improvers shears, i just make shorter OCIs.
- 0w protects the engine better "all-around" because it also reduces the cold start wear.
- Oil has been improved over the years, and oils like Mobil 1 0w-40 have shown that they perform extremly well.
- A HTHS above 3.5 should be good enough for almost any application.
- 0w- Oils perform well in cars like Porsche, Nissan GTR, AMG and so on.


I dont like to open a can of worms, but i need some education. Especially the points "HTHS" and "VI Improvers shear down" interesst me.



Christian, what are you using in your S2000? Currently I have Edge 10w30 with half a can of Mos2. Planning on switching to edge 5w30 and then potentially to Penrite Racing 5w30 (Which is a PAO Ester made in Australia)

Edit: I also hear edge 0w40 is a good choice for our cars, but I don't want to go out of 30 spec' in fear of compromising the oil jets that cool the pistons.

 

[Shannow]

Things change...

multigrades were identified as not offering the protection that their grade would imply, and research went into HTHS, and it became a part of J300.

0W through 10W 40s had a minimum HTHS of 2.9, up until very recently...now it's 3.5...

M1 0W40, through the early history of BITOG showed that it rapidly dropped into the 30s, and climbed back into the 40s....A speciality oil blender relied on this behaviour for their advertising literature (see below).


So what MAY have been the case 10-20 years ago is not necessarily true today...

If the manufacturers are testing, specifying, and certifying these oils, then trust them

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted by s2krunner
I have used M1 0w40 for my two Evolution 9 & X. One was 350 awhp and other one made 450 awhp. M1 0w40 was perfect choice for thicker side and good amount addictive also price.

Today, I just picked up Castrol 0w40 for my stock Camaro SS.


A non Dexos oil in that 2018 Chevy?.... Keep that tale off the GM forums or you will catch so much flack!

 

[StevieC]

Everyone knows that it's the stickers you put on your car like K&N Air filters and such that give it the performance not the 5w or 0w rating on the oil.

 

[ChristianReske]

@ DV0993:

I am using Penrite Racing Ten-10s 10w-40 at the moment. A little bit hard to get in Germany. Its viscositiy is more like a 5w-40 and it has a incredible HTHS of 4,5. I asked Penrite about it, they tell me this HTHS value.
There are NO good 10w-30 oils here in Germany. It is an absolutely uncommon grade here. According to what i read in forums, 90% of the S2000s here in Germany are filled with 5w-40.
No problems with the oil Jets. The Oil-guru in the German S2000 community even uses and recommends xxW-50 Oil, wich is wrong in my opinion.

And, as far as i know, it was only the German S2000s where Honda made a recall and changed the oil jets because some early engines get damaged after hard use on the Autobahn.
In all other nations, it is up to the owner. After MY 2002 all S2000 are fitted with the improved oil jets.

 

[DV0993]

Originally Posted by ChristianReske
@ DV0993:

I am using Penrite Racing Ten-10s 10w-40 at the moment. A little bit hard to get in Germany. Its viscositiy is more like a 5w-40 and it has a incredible HTHS of 4,5. I asked Penrite about it, they tell me this HTHS value.
There are NO good 10w-30 oils here in Germany. It is an absolutely uncommon grade here. According to what i read in forums, 90% of the S2000s here in Germany are filled with 5w-40.
No problems with the oil Jets. The Oil-guru in the German S2000 community even uses and recommends xxW-50 Oil, wich is wrong in my opinion.

And, as far as i know, it was only the German S2000s where Honda made a recall and changed the oil jets because some early engines get damaged after hard use on the Autobahn.
In all other nations, it is up to the owner. After MY 2002 all S2000 are fitted with the improved oil jets.


Thanks man! I had been looking into penrite racing for a while. I'll switch when I finish all my edge.

Between the Penrite Racing 5w30 and 10w40 which would you go for? Would you consider mixing the two?

 

[Shannow]

Penrite offer that their intent was that they could be mixed to optimise viscosity...same basic oil just different viscosities.
Pretty sure that HTHS of the 5W30 is mid 3s...have to dig it up

 

[ChristianReske]

At the moment, i opted for the 10w-40. I choose this oil because its PAO + Ester, claims to be shear free, full Zinc and all this marketing. And in fact, UOA in the german oil forum loks really good.
The 10w-40 has a incredible HTHS value, the 5w-30 has "only" 3.34.
Still good enough as Honda claims API SJ / SM as only specification in the owners manual for the S2000 and this oils only needs a HTHS above 2,6 if i am right.
But, as this thread shows, i re-think the oil choice.

Of course you could mix both oils to get a "Custom" viscosity.
http://www.nimac.de/viscosity-calcu...wn-oils-to-achieve-the-desired-viscosity

Here are UOA from germany, a tuned turbo mini.

1. 4350 km, 1300 km out of this at the racetrack. Oil is ROWE, a german company.
https://oil-club.de/index.php?threa...per-s-4350-km-davon-1300-km-rennstrecke/

2. 2700 Km, 700 Km of them racetrack with penrite 10w-40:
https://oil-club.de/index.php?threa...-40-mini-cooper-s-2-700-km-700-km-track/

The oil temps sometimes climbs up to 145°C in this car!

 

[rrounds]

I run M1 0/40 and a full can of MOS2 in my S2000, have a little over 145k miles on it. We have had this S for 9 years now and we drive in hot weather(up to 117*) and our oil gets hot but nothing to worry about. Your 145c(293f) is still not to hot for the M1 0/40 and if your running 290f+ then I wouldn't run a x/30w oil of any brand. You start pushing 300* and any oil will thin out and you don't have a large buffer if you start out on the thin side to begin with.You don't want the oil to get so thin it doesn't do its job and not protect your cyl. or bearings. Go on S2Ki and you can read about all the lost engins because of oil related failuers(a lot are oil starvation in turns) but they still have way more spun bearings and scored cylinders from just high speed runs that don't involve hard cornering.

One more thing, I run a large oil filter. It's over twice as large as the stock Honda S oil filter and that is a Baldwin B202. Have ran this filter for 9 years now. But I'm going to have an adapter made that will let me run a filter even larger that will flow more and filter better(99% @ 15 micron and 50% @ 7).

Take care of your engine because they're getting harder to find new or used in good condition,.
Rod

 

[Triple_Se7en]

10w40 syn is hard to find at the superstores around here. Gotta' look hard & long. Seeing less & less of 10w30 syn these days too.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
10w40 syn is hard to find at the superstores around here. Gotta' look hard & long. Seeing less & less of 10w30 syn these days too.

What was the last vehicle where it was a standard choice? The recommendations in my 2004 WRX owners manual were for 5W-30, 10W-30, or 10W-40 on the temp chart. I haven't heard of any other US spec recommendation for it. Certainly some exotic recommendations for 5W-40, 0W-40, or something funky like 10W-60. I haven't heard of it being used much except in oil burners to try and cut down consumption in and engine on its last legs.

I do remember taking delivery of a 1989 Integra RS where sales went over the manual where it said 5W-30 or 10W-30 and wrote in that their service dept said that 10W-49 or 20W-50 was OK.