What a mature, intelligent response.
Newer VW reliability
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Since I read the same post you did and didn't see where someone is claming that an Escort GT is a better car than an Audi GT..you figure it out.
You guys can debate the topic till you're blue in the face... VW's and Audi's as of late have had poor reliability. You can argue which is better, but that's the bottom line.
Just to clear this up, the TSB concerning VW's 1.8T's sludge problem was present in their longitudinal engines ONLY. It's actually quite rare to for their transverse-mounted engines (Jetta included) to have this problem. Just use a high quality engine oil, use common sense like letting the turbo cool before shutting engine down, etc.
The question remaining is whether or not you feel apt to tackle any of the problems which may appear. I took the risk about 1 1/2 ago when I bought my used 2001 loaded Jetta GLX.
I'd **** glad I did. Not only has the car been completely reliable, it wreaks of attention to detail and straight-out quality feel. The VR6 engine is bulletproof, and the car itself has not skipped a beat while being extremely fun to drive. The car is driven HARD at times, and continues to be a quiet riding sedan w/ all the amenities when I'm just looking to get from point A to B.
It's got 72k already, and I'm looking forward to more (hopefully) trouble-free miles.
Just to clear this up, the TSB concerning VW's 1.8T's sludge problem was present in their longitudinal engines ONLY. It's actually quite rare to for their transverse-mounted engines (Jetta included) to have this problem. Just use a high quality engine oil, use common sense like letting the turbo cool before shutting engine down, etc.
The question remaining is whether or not you feel apt to tackle any of the problems which may appear. I took the risk about 1 1/2 ago when I bought my used 2001 loaded Jetta GLX.
I'd **** glad I did. Not only has the car been completely reliable, it wreaks of attention to detail and straight-out quality feel. The VR6 engine is bulletproof, and the car itself has not skipped a beat while being extremely fun to drive. The car is driven HARD at times, and continues to be a quiet riding sedan w/ all the amenities when I'm just looking to get from point A to B.
It's got 72k already, and I'm looking forward to more (hopefully) trouble-free miles.
Here's a quickie factoid, please bear with me for rounding and guesstimating the actual numbers. My memory is not razor-sharp.
2002 Sable wagon, $20,500
2002 VW Jetta Wagon $21,000
KBB in 2004:
Sable $9000
Jetta $17,000
I could go on and on, but American cars speak for themselves.
2002 Sable wagon, $20,500
2002 VW Jetta Wagon $21,000
KBB in 2004:
Sable $9000
Jetta $17,000
I could go on and on, but American cars speak for themselves.
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I care, hence I drive an Audi.
VW - the best built cars MEXICO ever assembled.
They went to MEXICO because of the abundance of highly skilled tradesmen known for their loyalty, experience, and work ethic? LOL !
The most impressive part of VW's engineering is the ABILITY TO BE MANUFACTURED OFF-SITE by ADVANCED EQUIPMENT and EASILY REPLACED labour that requires an absolute minimum of training.
Not in my driveway.
IMO.
MAT
They went to MEXICO because of the abundance of highly skilled tradesmen known for their loyalty, experience, and work ethic? LOL !
The most impressive part of VW's engineering is the ABILITY TO BE MANUFACTURED OFF-SITE by ADVANCED EQUIPMENT and EASILY REPLACED labour that requires an absolute minimum of training.
Not in my driveway.
IMO.
MAT
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Wow Mat, I could have sworn my Golf came from Wolfsburg, Germany. I am certain that my neighbors Jetta Wagon came from Germany too. And I could almost swear that I saw a Golf GTI with a Brazilian sticker on it.
Holy smokes,, that Passat across the street is made in some place called "Deutschland",,, I guess that's down near Cozumel.
Ooops, maybe the Beetle and Jetta sedan are the only two products that come from Puebla,,, and we know those constitute the entire product line.
Holy smokes,, that Passat across the street is made in some place called "Deutschland",,, I guess that's down near Cozumel.
Ooops, maybe the Beetle and Jetta sedan are the only two products that come from Puebla,,, and we know those constitute the entire product line.
Edmunds states that the "dealer retail" value of a 2002 Jetta Wagon ranges from $10,000 to $15,000.
I checked all 7 models.
As far as the Taurus (EDIT: Sable too, they're the same thing) goes, the low resale value on that vehicle is well-known and I suspect that's exactly why you picked it to try to make your point.
Plenty of haters on this thread. Did you ever notice how people who slam the Euro brands have no experience with them? Hello, most Euro and Japanese owners are aware of Buick, Plymouth and the other jems that Detroit offers. Talk about a wasteland...I wonder why there are not many or any UAW workers here on BitOG, they are not computer literate, they are simply illiterate...or just drunk off their azz. What makes me cackle the most is the era when "The Big Three" (idiots) had to stoop at the feet of the highly intelligent and motivated JAPANESE workers and managers to save them from their own ineptitude. Remember the Tom Hanks movie "Gung Ho"? I laugh and laugh at that one. German auto workers never suffered such a humiliation, just a bad set-up on the stamper machine that makes the Bremi coilpacks. Where do you get a million replacment coilpacks overnight anyway?
Oh, BTW, as far as complaints and owner satisfaction, my aunt and uncle buy nothing but American. They have no clue what a good car is, they are the lifeblood of Detroit. Their daughter has bought nothing but VW, Rabitt, Fox, Jetta, Passat. She drives them 200+k and donates them. Don't think she ever pops the hood.
Oh, BTW, as far as complaints and owner satisfaction, my aunt and uncle buy nothing but American. They have no clue what a good car is, they are the lifeblood of Detroit. Their daughter has bought nothing but VW, Rabitt, Fox, Jetta, Passat. She drives them 200+k and donates them. Don't think she ever pops the hood.
Try?
BTW Bri, it's 2005 now.
An example I use to dramatize the "percieved value" of American cars is this:
The 2 cars that are worth $2000 normal running condition, a Tempo and a Volvo.
Say that both cars suddenly need a trans that costs $2000.
What do you do with the Tempo? It's a P O S, needs everything, not worth following up the repair with new shocks and a detail...junk it.
The Volvo MIGHT be worth fixing. It's safe, the interior is not in tatters, the paint has not peeled, interior controls are "normal" and it's likely to be in-service for a long time. In that case, you do the trans...you simply have a nice Volvo with a new trans..a GOOD THING!
BTW- http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/29/Autos/costliest_car_ownership_cities/index.htm?cnn=yes
The 2 cars that are worth $2000 normal running condition, a Tempo and a Volvo.
Say that both cars suddenly need a trans that costs $2000.
What do you do with the Tempo? It's a P O S, needs everything, not worth following up the repair with new shocks and a detail...junk it.
The Volvo MIGHT be worth fixing. It's safe, the interior is not in tatters, the paint has not peeled, interior controls are "normal" and it's likely to be in-service for a long time. In that case, you do the trans...you simply have a nice Volvo with a new trans..a GOOD THING!
BTW- http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/29/Autos/costliest_car_ownership_cities/index.htm?cnn=yes
Gentlemen,
There is already an internet forum dedicated to VW haters. It's not very hard to find.
This thread shows serious potential for turning into another VW haters thread, & I believe it might be time for a dose of:
There is already an internet forum dedicated to VW haters. It's not very hard to find.
This thread shows serious potential for turning into another VW haters thread, & I believe it might be time for a dose of:
I admit that I'm a hater of unreliability (and irrationality).
AJ: Have you heard of the expression "****ing with faint praise?" You have now compared a VW Jetta with a Mercury Sable and a Volvo with a Ford Tempo. Oh, the indignation....
And you conveniently forget that Porsche was saved by Toyota executives when they were developing the Boxster. Remember your history: It was Americans who taught the Japanese about quality in the first place. They took those methods to heart. And as the Koreans are now proving again, quality is basically about committing the time and money on following a statistical procedure. Quality is boring and non-glamorous. It seems that the Americans and Europeans are too busy looking for the next gadget or cross-over vehicle (or grill style).
But back to VW: Have you ever wondered why it takes two full years for VW to work out the problems on the new Golf before they sell it in the US? It's been on the road in Europe since 04, but there's no sign of it here.
[ August 02, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Tosh ]
AJ: Have you heard of the expression "****ing with faint praise?" You have now compared a VW Jetta with a Mercury Sable and a Volvo with a Ford Tempo. Oh, the indignation....
And you conveniently forget that Porsche was saved by Toyota executives when they were developing the Boxster. Remember your history: It was Americans who taught the Japanese about quality in the first place. They took those methods to heart. And as the Koreans are now proving again, quality is basically about committing the time and money on following a statistical procedure. Quality is boring and non-glamorous. It seems that the Americans and Europeans are too busy looking for the next gadget or cross-over vehicle (or grill style).
But back to VW: Have you ever wondered why it takes two full years for VW to work out the problems on the new Golf before they sell it in the US? It's been on the road in Europe since 04, but there's no sign of it here.
[ August 02, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Tosh ]
I've owned an '84 VW Rabbit GTI. I loved that car! The handling was fantastic, peppy, quick. It was also old and falling apart. Not the cars fault I owned it at the end of it's life. I am however leery of the reported unreliability of newer VWs.
I've owned a '94 Merc Sable. Slow, underpowered, unreliable.
Now, I drive a Hyundai - I'm happy!
I've owned a '94 Merc Sable. Slow, underpowered, unreliable.
Now, I drive a Hyundai - I'm happy!
Audi Junkie:
don't be such a jerk! I can't believe that you said "UAW workers ... are not computer literate, they are simply illiterate...or just drunk off their azz."
That's not just inaccurate, it's obviously baiting. Also stating the Buick (as you mention several times) makes substandard cars, is also pure drivel. They may not handle the way "you" want them to, they may not be styled the way "you" want them styled, but they are durable (something an Audi or a VW isn't - and DURABLE means ability to continue with little or no maintainence), get good mileage, have "reasonable" power and are can be treated like appliances. You buy it, you get it it, and you drive it.
The entire point of this thread is to discuss VW's apparent lack of reliability, and I'm afraid that unlike Buick VW has a long and glorious history of electrical gremlins, sludgy engines, and problematic vehicles. I don't care of the switchgear is made of plastic or the car has a "floaty" suspension or an old-tech engine (which is very reliable and gets good mileage).
If I had to pick a vehicle to drive across the United States coast-to-coast I wouldn't even bat an eye between a VW and a Buick, I'd take the Buick.
You /cannot/ be so in love with Audi/VW that you can't see the facts, and those facts are that VW has more problems than Buick, period.
don't be such a jerk! I can't believe that you said "UAW workers ... are not computer literate, they are simply illiterate...or just drunk off their azz."
That's not just inaccurate, it's obviously baiting. Also stating the Buick (as you mention several times) makes substandard cars, is also pure drivel. They may not handle the way "you" want them to, they may not be styled the way "you" want them styled, but they are durable (something an Audi or a VW isn't - and DURABLE means ability to continue with little or no maintainence), get good mileage, have "reasonable" power and are can be treated like appliances. You buy it, you get it it, and you drive it.
The entire point of this thread is to discuss VW's apparent lack of reliability, and I'm afraid that unlike Buick VW has a long and glorious history of electrical gremlins, sludgy engines, and problematic vehicles. I don't care of the switchgear is made of plastic or the car has a "floaty" suspension or an old-tech engine (which is very reliable and gets good mileage).
If I had to pick a vehicle to drive across the United States coast-to-coast I wouldn't even bat an eye between a VW and a Buick, I'd take the Buick.
You /cannot/ be so in love with Audi/VW that you can't see the facts, and those facts are that VW has more problems than Buick, period.
The value you quoted for a 2002 Jetta Wagon is about $2000 above dealer price for the top model. (For those who don't know, dealer price is higher than private party price, which in turn is higher than trade-in).
Thanks for telling me. The price you quoted on a Jetta Wagon might have been correct for 2004.
To remove all doubt, the Escort GT is a known junker. I was insinuating something.
Are we still comparing a Sable to a Jetta? I'll bet the Sable's sale price was closer to $17,500, in '02...and the Jetta was over-priced & probably only had a cassette deck. But I am not here to argue over Fords. Find me 10 people that would pay $17k for a 4 year old 2.0 Jetta with 50k miles. $17k for this hypothetical car is the best joke I have heard all week!
After owning a 2001 Jetta, looking at the reliability records & customer evaluations, I feel sorry for anyone that has a 99.5-'05 VW.
Are we still comparing a Sable to a Jetta? I'll bet the Sable's sale price was closer to $17,500, in '02...and the Jetta was over-priced & probably only had a cassette deck. But I am not here to argue over Fords. Find me 10 people that would pay $17k for a 4 year old 2.0 Jetta with 50k miles. $17k for this hypothetical car is the best joke I have heard all week!
After owning a 2001 Jetta, looking at the reliability records & customer evaluations, I feel sorry for anyone that has a 99.5-'05 VW.
I look to WWII for insight into the industrial philosophy of the various countries.
Japan's airforce was designed by the Luftwaffe with the design target of high-performance and reliability with the sacrifice of occupant safety, see: Mitsubishi Zero. The German planes were overly technical, were produced in low numbers, required high octance and spares were in short supply.
The American example I offer is the Sherman tank. Reliable, yes, even more than the overbuilt German ones, but the Sherman tank crews were in serious peril with the patheticly poor battlefield performce of it's main gun, manuoverbility and armour. The unfortunate crews were mislead into believing it was comprable to the awesome German Panzer, Panther, Tiger and King Tiger tanks.
See the parallels to today's auto "battlefield"?
[ August 02, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
Japan's airforce was designed by the Luftwaffe with the design target of high-performance and reliability with the sacrifice of occupant safety, see: Mitsubishi Zero. The German planes were overly technical, were produced in low numbers, required high octance and spares were in short supply.
The American example I offer is the Sherman tank. Reliable, yes, even more than the overbuilt German ones, but the Sherman tank crews were in serious peril with the patheticly poor battlefield performce of it's main gun, manuoverbility and armour. The unfortunate crews were mislead into believing it was comprable to the awesome German Panzer, Panther, Tiger and King Tiger tanks.
See the parallels to today's auto "battlefield"?
[ August 02, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
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