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Originally Posted by PimTac
Wag, you have to understand, edy is a BMW and VAG fanboy. They can do no wrong and every other manufacturer makes appliances.

Just mention anything negative about German engineering and you will get the wrath as exhibited above.

My personal take on "German Engineering"...
German manufacturers design vehicles that are VERY precisely engineered (and in some cases, overly/unnecessarily complicated). So much so that in some cases they know when one of their parts is going to fail and they include replacement of that part in their regular maintenance requirements (rather than redesigning the part so that it won't or shouldn't fail). If BMW (or Audi, Mercedes, VW) tells you that the hooter valve needs to be replaced at the 60k mile service, YOU HAD BETTER REPLACE IT! If you don't, you can be sure that the hooter valve will fail at 63k miles. Furthermore, the OEM replacement hooter valve will also need to be replaced in another 60k miles.

On the other hand, Japanese manufacturers tend to design components in such a way that they won't (or shouldn't) fail during the life of the vehicle and don't require replacement during regular maintenance, and if something does fail prematurely (and with some frequency), they redesign it so that the replacement won't fail prematurely again. This is why you see so many superseded part numbers in the Japanese manufacturer's parts books.
This is a basic philosophical difference between Japanese and German manufacturers. The American, British, Italian, and French manufacturers are another story.
 
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by wag123
The part about how Toyota engineers tested/checked/analyzed the quality of individual components that BMW had engineered/manufactured and sent many of them back to BMW to be redesigned to meet Toyota's tougher quality/reliability/durability standards is VERY telling about the basic philosophy of the two companies. Maybe BMW will learn something from Toyota about how to engineer/manufacture parts that will last the life of the car, not just until shortly after the end of the warranty period.

That is ABSOLUTE BS!
So, let me get this strait. Toyota is buying B48/58 engines from BMW because they are not as good as Toyota's? You do know that Toyota engineers said two years ago that they decided to go with BMW because they lost know-how how to develop engines necessary for cars like Supra?
So Toyota is saying: we do not have know-how to develope/make these engines, but once we buy it from you, we will test to see are they good? Not only that, Toyota is buying diesel engines from BMW because their diesel engines in Europe (1.4 D-4D and 2.2. D-4D) had probably the most horrific reliability of all diesel engines offered in Europe. Do they test them too? To check whether they are good although their 2.2 D-4D could not make 100k km without pistons disintegrating.
And, both Z4 and Supra are made in the SAME factory, a BMW factory in Austria.
Maybe Toyota will learn how to make FINALLY something that does not remind people of microwave when they driving it. I yet to drive BMW that is not assembled better than ANY Toyota on the market.
Edit: If their quality control is anything like in SIenna people can expect: failing brakes, constantly rattling windows, freezing to death on cold mornings, and plastic and steering wheel material that after 55k looks like my BMW E34 when it had 485k km when I sold it.

Did you even watch the video edyvw? Go back and watch it from 8:14 to 9:31.
It clearly stated in the video that the Toyota engineers knew about BMW's reliability problems and that they were not "in line" with Toyota's reliability standards. When Toyota was doing their evaluation and testing of the parts BMW designed and manufactured for the new engine and car, thousands of them did not meet Toyota's quality/reliability/durability standards and were sent back to BMW for redesign/improvement. BMW was "taken aback" by this revelation but correlates well with my personal experience with thousands of BMWs and Toyotas over the better part of my 45 years in the car business. BMW tends to not pay a whole lot of attention to the long-term reliability/durability of their products/parts, just the end performance of their vehicles while they are relatively new (which is world class). For as long as I can remember, BMW has had problems with parts that fail prematurely, and sells replacement parts of identical design that will also fail prematurely (for exorbitant prices). Thank goodness for the aftermarket where there are improved non-OEM parts available for BMW products that answer the need for replacement parts that won't fail prematurely. As for Toyota's involvement in the development of BMW's new engine and car, IMO this will have a positive impact on the long term reliability/durability of all BMW products going forward.

Yes I watched video.
Several problems with video of someone that clearly is driving only Toyota and is Toyota fan boy.
1. We do not know where he is getting his "information."
2. Toyota engineers said that they approached BMW for development, not other way around.
3. They also stated that they lost know-how in development and BUILDING engines necessary for these cars.
Now about quality control:
4. Toyota said N55 engine is not reliable for their standards (N55 has electric water pump and that is part that is an issue on that engine). OK, it is know issue due to innovation (something Toyota does not know what it is anymore). BMW figured that bump in hp and mpg is not worth trouble, that is why B48/B58 have regular belt driven pump (something that author of video does not have any idea about). Also, he said Toyota wanted new engine, and BMW was already building new engine, and Toyota says that engine should be used. What? What does that mean?
Author implies that BMW engineers designed engine and other parts and then Toyota send them back. OK, here is problem with that: a. BMW would never allow other company to redesign their engines or parts (nor ANY other German company, author clearly does not have any idea how that works). Also, it implies that Toyota has higher standards in manufacturing engines and other parts. OK. Several questions for you:
a. Why then Toyota approached BMW? Toyota has in stable 2.0T engine (and pretty mediocre engine, for a reason) and new 3.5 V6 twin turbo. Why not using them?
b. What quality? I own Sienna here and Land Cruiser in Europe (diesel). I had recently two BMW diesels who were FAR less problematic than Land Cruiser (E61 and E70). Not to mention that both SIenna and Land Cruiser have issue with undersized brake rotors (did Toyota also give them few tips about that? What did they say? Make rotors smaller?), while Land Crusier has horrid suspension quality issues (I have never changed so many bushings on any car). On top of that as I mentioned you, Toyota has abysmal reliability of their smaller diesels (and diesel in my Land Cruiser is not example of reliability either). So, my question to you is: if Toyota has such high standards, how is that their 2.2 D-4D engines could not make 100k km without pretty much disintegrating? Do they also check BMW diesels they buy for their Avensis line up too?
c. How is that Toyota has constant issue with 8 speed automatic transmissions (Aisin)? And here is a caveat, BMW is using same transmission in their transverse engine vehicles but DO NOT have issues that Toyota has. Now this is fact, not something picked up from Youtube video. So does that mean that Aisin (Toyota) had to deliver to BMW transmission per BMW higher standards?
d. Going back to transmission. Yes ZF8 is called BMW transmission as BMW was earliest adopter and worked on development (FCA etc. came later as buyers and transmissions are not programmed as good as in BMW's). So how is that ZF8 is of better quality than Aisin 8 speed if Toyota has higher quality standards?
5. Claim that BMW engineers were surprised how much Toyota pays attention on reliability is simply false (you can call it lie etc.). I worked as test drivers. I worked with people from BMW, Toyota etc. They are very well aware what other companies are doing. No one in BMW is "surprised" what Toyota does, nor they are surprised in Toyota how BMW does its business. So that is just plain false.
6. Since I have been test driver what this indicates me is that Toyota not only did not have know how, but BMW left them in dark about most important parts of development and that is testing! Toyota got finished vehicle and BMW basically told them that after most important parts are done, they can do whatever they want. It is also worth mentioning (which is not in video) that both B48 and B58 in Supra are seriously down on power compared to BMW Z4 and that is not bcs Toyota wants that! Also, Toyota WILL NOT get M version of this vehicle, and that is also, well what BMW told them it will happen. Also, Toyota is getting detuned diesels too (as well as GM did when they were buying diesels from BMW).
7. I owned Toyota's, and I owned BMW's. There is difference in approach to business. Toyota has its customer base, BMW their. But, BMW is at forefront of innovation, unlike Toyota (hence approaching BWM to develop Supra). BMW could deliver actually very reliable vehicle. They take M54 engine off their shelfs, they bump displacement to 3.5 liters and they get inline version of 2GR-FE or they put direct injection and there you go, they are where Toyota is today with their D4, plus ZF is more reliable than anything from Aisin, and that is it. But, BMW is not trying to sell 20 year old engines because their customer base is not the same.

The guy in video does not have a clue. I worked with Toyota engineers on fuel testing for their 1.4 D-4D engine. I have not seen more ridiculous diesel engine ever built. And that is problem with Toyota, for far too long they were involved in selling refrigerators to people. They have their place and function (I have one) but they are far from being some quality standard and once they decided to do complex engines on their own, they miserably failed (hence approaching BMW for Supra).
 
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by wag123
The part about how Toyota engineers tested/checked/analyzed the quality of individual components that BMW had engineered/manufactured and sent many of them back to BMW to be redesigned to meet Toyota's tougher quality/reliability/durability standards is VERY telling about the basic philosophy of the two companies. Maybe BMW will learn something from Toyota about how to engineer/manufacture parts that will last the life of the car, not just until shortly after the end of the warranty period.

That is ABSOLUTE BS!
So, let me get this strait. Toyota is buying B48/58 engines from BMW because they are not as good as Toyota's? You do know that Toyota engineers said two years ago that they decided to go with BMW because they lost know-how how to develop engines necessary for cars like Supra?
So Toyota is saying: we do not have know-how to develope/make these engines, but once we buy it from you, we will test to see are they good? Not only that, Toyota is buying diesel engines from BMW because their diesel engines in Europe (1.4 D-4D and 2.2. D-4D) had probably the most horrific reliability of all diesel engines offered in Europe. Do they test them too? To check whether they are good although their 2.2 D-4D could not make 100k km without pistons disintegrating.
And, both Z4 and Supra are made in the SAME factory, a BMW factory in Austria.
Maybe Toyota will learn how to make FINALLY something that does not remind people of microwave when they driving it. I yet to drive BMW that is not assembled better than ANY Toyota on the market.
Edit: If their quality control is anything like in SIenna people can expect: failing brakes, constantly rattling windows, freezing to death on cold mornings, and plastic and steering wheel material that after 55k looks like my BMW E34 when it had 485k km when I sold it.

Did you even watch the video edyvw? Go back and watch it from 8:14 to 9:31.
It clearly stated in the video that the Toyota engineers knew about BMW's reliability problems and that they were not "in line" with Toyota's reliability standards. When Toyota was doing their evaluation and testing of the parts BMW designed and manufactured for the new engine and car, thousands of them did not meet Toyota's quality/reliability/durability standards and were sent back to BMW for redesign/improvement. BMW was "taken aback" by this revelation but correlates well with my personal experience with thousands of BMWs and Toyotas over the better part of my 45 years in the car business. BMW tends to not pay a whole lot of attention to the long-term reliability/durability of their products/parts, just the end performance of their vehicles while they are relatively new (which is world class). For as long as I can remember, BMW has had problems with parts that fail prematurely, and sells replacement parts of identical design that will also fail prematurely (for exorbitant prices). Thank goodness for the aftermarket where there are improved non-OEM parts available for BMW products that answer the need for replacement parts that won't fail prematurely. As for Toyota's involvement in the development of BMW's new engine and car, IMO this will have a positive impact on the long term reliability/durability of all BMW products going forward.


Keep in mind Toyota customers are the intended audience for this film. Due to the reputation regarding reliability for both companies here's no doubt that Toyota was going to mention something about insuring the parts meet their "high" standards. Also the engine used in the Supra is a de-tuned version of the BMW variant and they did it via parts rather than software. This is important because , IMO, it limits the amount of aftermarket tuning. Aftermarket tuning is a problem for BMW.

Toyota simply does not design engines which make over 100hp/liter. Their customers don't demand that sort of performance so it made perfect sense for them to save money by teaming up with BMW. Especially since the engine of choice is the I6.

Finally, yes BMW parts are expensive but that's mostly due to volume. Toyota sells 10 million vehicles a year vs BMW 2.5 million.

It's also why BMW engineers their cars to last about 120k miles. They simply don't have the production capacity to engineer highly reliable, high volume, low margin vehicles. BMW also competes in the luxury market where success is about being "first to market' because that's what their customers want. Toyota not so much. Lexus really is nothing more than a Toyota with more sound deadening material and a Lexus badge. Don't get me wrong, Lexus is very reliable and that's what their customers want. A nicely appointed and reliable vehicle.
 
"BMW could deliver actually very reliable vehicle."

Then why don't they? And I say this as a fan and owner of BMW and other European makes. We've owned 4 BMW's since new and are looking at one again, and in doing so, will willingly sacrifice ultimate reliability and ease of ownership for the driving feel of a BMW or Audi. There is a difference.

In my experience, it is hard to argue the general ease of ownership of Toyota, Lexus in our case. The best of any vehicle we've had experience with. The 'ease' includes not only the reliability of the vehicle itself, but also the customer service at the dealers. But, they are lacking in interior appointments and, most importantly, feel and driving dynamics. Even their top grand tourers (just spent a few days in a loaner LC hybrid) don't have the feel of peer vehicles from BMW or Porsche, and most of Lexus's (and Toyota's) customers don't know or care.

Maybe I've also answered the question through our own actions; enthusiasts are willing to tolerate less than the best reliability for the vehicles' other attributes.

Oh, and as I said...this video emits more than a whiff of propaganda...
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
"BMW could deliver actually very reliable vehicle."

Then why don't they? And I say this as a fan and owner of BMW and other European makes. We've owned 4 BMW's since new and are looking at one again, and in doing so, will willingly sacrifice ultimate reliability and ease of ownership for the driving feel of a BMW or Audi. There is a difference.

In my experience, it is hard to argue the general ease of ownership of Toyota, Lexus in our case. The best of any vehicle we've had experience with. The 'ease' includes not only the reliability of the vehicle itself, but also the customer service at the dealers. But, they are lacking in interior appointments and, most importantly, feel and driving dynamics. Even their top grand tourers (just spent a few days in a loaner LC hybrid) don't have the feel of peer vehicles from BMW or Porsche.

Maybe I've also answered the question through our own actions; enthusiasts are willing to tolerate less than the best reliability for the vehicles' other attributes.



It would cost too much. It's why nobody really has done it.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
"BMW could deliver actually very reliable vehicle."

Then why don't they? And I say this as a fan and owner of BMW and other European makes. We've owned 4 BMW's since new and are looking at one again, and in doing so, will willingly sacrifice ultimate reliability and ease of ownership for the driving feel of a BMW or Audi. There is a difference.

In my experience, it is hard to argue the general ease of ownership of Toyota, Lexus in our case. The best of any vehicle we've had experience with. The 'ease' includes not only the reliability of the vehicle itself, but also the customer service at the dealers. But, they are lacking in interior appointments and, most importantly, feel and driving dynamics. Even their top grand tourers (just spent a few days in a loaner LC hybrid) don't have the feel of peer vehicles from BMW or Porsche.

Maybe I've also answered the question through our own actions; enthusiasts are willing to tolerate less than the best reliability for the vehicles' other attributes.



It would cost too much. It's why nobody really has done it.


I'd say Honda came close to doing that with the original NSX and, to a lower market, the S2000. I'm sure they could do the same with a RWD/AWD coupe, but apparently they and Toyota don't see enough of a market for one.
 
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by wings&wheels
"BMW could deliver actually very reliable vehicle."

Then why don't they? And I say this as a fan and owner of BMW and other European makes. We've owned 4 BMW's since new and are looking at one again, and in doing so, will willingly sacrifice ultimate reliability and ease of ownership for the driving feel of a BMW or Audi. There is a difference.

In my experience, it is hard to argue the general ease of ownership of Toyota, Lexus in our case. The best of any vehicle we've had experience with. The 'ease' includes not only the reliability of the vehicle itself, but also the customer service at the dealers. But, they are lacking in interior appointments and, most importantly, feel and driving dynamics. Even their top grand tourers (just spent a few days in a loaner LC hybrid) don't have the feel of peer vehicles from BMW or Porsche.

Maybe I've also answered the question through our own actions; enthusiasts are willing to tolerate less than the best reliability for the vehicles' other attributes.



It would cost too much. It's why nobody really has done it.


I'd say Honda came close to doing that with the original NSX and, to a lower market, the S2000. I'm sure they could do the same with a RWD/AWD coupe, but apparently they and Toyota don't see enough of a market for one.


Ya, but keep in mind that the original NSX was way down on power vs it's competitors. I used to think of it as the Asian Lotus Espirit(sp?).
 
>Author implies that BMW engineers designed engine and other parts and then Toyota send them back. OK, here is problem with that: a. BMW would never allow other company to redesign their engines or parts (nor ANY other German company, author clearly does not have any idea how that works).
Unless... the two companies are involved in a partnership to co-develop a vehicle for which one of them (Toyota) is paying a LARGE percentage of the development costs. No doubt about it, Toyota has DEEP POCKETS, much deeper than BMW's pockets. Because of the high development costs and low sales volume, BMW had already abandoned the idea of coming with another Z4. Also, in the video it talks about how development had been stalled due to cultural differences until Mr. Kai entered the picture and smoothed everything over. Regardless, Toyota DID demand improvements and BMW obviously made them otherwise there wouldn't even be a new Supra, or a new Z4.
>Toyota said N55 engine is not reliable for their standards (N55 has electric water pump and that is part that is an issue on that engine). OK, it is know issue due to innovation (something Toyota does not know what it is anymore).
There isn't anything "innovative" about the use of electric water pumps. Toyota uses electric water pumps on their Hybrids and don't have problems with them.
>both SIenna and Land Cruiser have issue with undersized brake rotors
I have a Sienna that I have owned for 14 years and 170k miles. I pull a couple of trailers with it and I have never had a problem with the brake rotors.
>Claim that BMW engineers were surprised how much Toyota pays attention on reliability is simply false.
I disagree. I think that BMW's engineers were probably VERY surprised (or, like they say in the video, taken aback) at how many of the parts that they engineered were considered substandard by Toyota's engineers. The Germans have a long history of not recognizing or believing that something their engineers designed could possibly be substandard. Those of us with a long history involved in the car business know better.
>How is that Toyota has constant issue with 8 speed automatic transmissions (Aisin)?
Actual internal mechanical problems with a few of the early Aisin 8-speed automatics were ironed out by Dec 2017 and appeared primarily in AWD models. The other reported shifting problems are computer programming/software related and have also been addressed. Regardless, if the past is any indication of the future, the Aisin will likely outlast the ZF by a fair margin. Calling the ZF a higher quality transmission than the Aisin is premature at best, and untrue at worst.
>BMW is at forefront of innovation, unlike Toyota.
Really? What say you about Hybrid development? Toyota started Hybrid development back in the 1980's, WAY before anyone else even had a clue, and ALL of the other auto manufacturers are using some of Toyota's patents in their Hybrids. IMO this was/is at the cutting edge of innovation in the auto industry.
And, what about... Toyota's heavy involvement in developing robotics for automotive production/assembly, or electric power steering, or fully electric HVAC systems, or hydrogen fuel cell powered EVs, or D-4S fuel injection (both port and direct injection), or modern implementation and use of of the Atkinson-cycle in production engines, or Toyota's heavy involvement in the development of AI for use in future vehicles? Toyota innovated those too, and MANY MANY more. Also, no other automaker can match the number of patents issued to Toyota in the last 16 years, and it's not even close! Patents are issued to innovators, not wannabes.
>And that is problem with Toyota, for far too long they were involved in selling refrigerators to people.
To my knowledge Toyota has never manufactured and sold a refrigerator.

IMO there is NO downside to BMW's collaboration with Toyota, for BMW. They can benefit greatly from the collaboration (if they choose to) by improving the reliability/durability of their products based on Toyota's engineering input. However, Toyota could have their reputation irreparably harmed if the new Supra turns out to have some of BMW's typical reliability/durability problems.
 
When they both hit the ground and people actually starting getting into them, I'll be genuinely surprised if there are any differences beyond software and cosmetics.
 
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
When they both hit the ground and people actually starting getting into them, I'll be genuinely surprised if there are any differences beyond software and cosmetics.


Supra makes less power than a Z4, new Supra is perhaps the ultimate dud. It does not even look good in my opine.
 
Originally Posted by wag123
>Author implies that BMW engineers designed engine and other parts and then Toyota send them back. OK, here is problem with that: a. BMW would never allow other company to redesign their engines or parts (nor ANY other German company, author clearly does not have any idea how that works).
Unless... the two companies are involved in a partnership to co-develop a vehicle for which one of them (Toyota) is paying a LARGE percentage of the development costs. No doubt about it, Toyota has DEEP POCKETS, much deeper than BMW's pockets. Because of the high development costs and low sales volume, BMW had already abandoned the idea of coming with another Z4. Also, in the video it talks about how development had been stalled due to cultural differences until Mr. Kai entered the picture and smoothed everything over. Regardless, Toyota DID demand improvements and BMW obviously made them otherwise there wouldn't even be a new Supra, or a new Z4.
>Toyota said N55 engine is not reliable for their standards (N55 has electric water pump and that is part that is an issue on that engine). OK, it is know issue due to innovation (something Toyota does not know what it is anymore).
There isn't anything "innovative" about the use of electric water pumps. Toyota uses electric water pumps on their Hybrids and don't have problems with them.
>both SIenna and Land Cruiser have issue with undersized brake rotors
I have a Sienna that I have owned for 14 years and 170k miles. I pull a couple of trailers with it and I have never had a problem with the brake rotors.
>Claim that BMW engineers were surprised how much Toyota pays attention on reliability is simply false.
I disagree. I think that BMW's engineers were probably VERY surprised (or, like they say in the video, taken aback) at how many of the parts that they engineered were considered substandard by Toyota's engineers. The Germans have a long history of not recognizing or believing that something their engineers designed could possibly be substandard. Those of us with a long history involved in the car business know better.
>How is that Toyota has constant issue with 8 speed automatic transmissions (Aisin)?
Actual internal mechanical problems with a few of the early Aisin 8-speed automatics were ironed out by Dec 2017 and appeared primarily in AWD models. The other reported shifting problems are computer programming/software related and have also been addressed. Regardless, if the past is any indication of the future, the Aisin will likely outlast the ZF by a fair margin. Calling the ZF a higher quality transmission than the Aisin is premature at best, and untrue at worst.
>BMW is at forefront of innovation, unlike Toyota.
Really? What say you about Hybrid development? Toyota started Hybrid development back in the 1980's, WAY before anyone else even had a clue, and ALL of the other auto manufacturers are using some of Toyota's patents in their Hybrids. IMO this was/is at the cutting edge of innovation in the auto industry.
And, what about... Toyota's heavy involvement in developing robotics for automotive production/assembly, or electric power steering, or fully electric HVAC systems, or hydrogen fuel cell powered EVs, or D-4S fuel injection (both port and direct injection), or modern implementation and use of of the Atkinson-cycle in production engines, or Toyota's heavy involvement in the development of AI for use in future vehicles? Toyota innovated those too, and MANY MANY more. Also, no other automaker can match the number of patents issued to Toyota in the last 16 years, and it's not even close! Patents are issued to innovators, not wannabes.
>And that is problem with Toyota, for far too long they were involved in selling refrigerators to people.
To my knowledge Toyota has never manufactured and sold a refrigerator.

IMO there is NO downside to BMW's collaboration with Toyota, for BMW. They can benefit greatly from the collaboration (if they choose to) by improving the reliability/durability of their products based on Toyota's engineering input. However, Toyota could have their reputation irreparably harmed if the new Supra turns out to have some of BMW's typical reliability/durability problems.

I am not disputing hybrids.
Everything else it is absolute nonsense, especially comparing PERFORMANCE and reliability of ZF to Aisin. No Toyota did not polish 8 speed by December 2017, my best man has HL built in Oct 2018 and it was at dealer like 30 times so far. I would not be surprised if he burns a car eventually, which he promised he will.
But, if quality control is so good, how did it happen that they had such major flop in the first place? Take into consideration that that transmission is also in BMW transverse engine AWD models (as well as VW). And, this is very interesting part, both BMW and VW had that transmission before Toyota in their models. But again, if QC is so good in Toyota, how is that there are no problems in BMW, VW but there are in Toyota? Video indicates that QC in Toyota is MUCH better than in BMW, so how this could happen? Or how such atrocities as 1.4 and 2.2 D-4D engines could happen? Why in y Land Cruiser EGR valves, back pressure valves, MAF's are constantly failing, but in my E61 and E70 with M57 diesels I only had to replace thermostat in the engine. Interesting is that QC in Toyota.
As for brakes on Sienna, well I like to drive Sienna as any other vehicle (including Land Cruiser) and brakes have serious issue with that. I was afraid I will brake rear pads how "big" they are. My Opel Vectra from 1996 that was like 1600lbs lighter had bigger rear pads.
Argument by these Toyota fan boys who just do not want to admit that they are driving ultimate refrigerator is: Toyota is buying engines from BMW, bcs. they just cannot built those engines, and then they teach BMW how to do it, although when Toyota did it, they miserably failed. One cannot make this BS up. And Toyota customers are buying it.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by wag123
The part about how Toyota engineers tested/checked/analyzed the quality of individual components that BMW had engineered/manufactured and sent many of them back to BMW to be redesigned to meet Toyota's tougher quality/reliability/durability standards is VERY telling about the basic philosophy of the two companies. Maybe BMW will learn something from Toyota about how to engineer/manufacture parts that will last the life of the car, not just until shortly after the end of the warranty period.

That is ABSOLUTE BS!
So, let me get this strait. Toyota is buying B48/58 engines from BMW because they are not as good as Toyota's? You do know that Toyota engineers said two years ago that they decided to go with BMW because they lost know-how how to develop engines necessary for cars like Supra?
So Toyota is saying: we do not have know-how to develope/make these engines, but once we buy it from you, we will test to see are they good? Not only that, Toyota is buying diesel engines from BMW because their diesel engines in Europe (1.4 D-4D and 2.2. D-4D) had probably the most horrific reliability of all diesel engines offered in Europe. Do they test them too? To check whether they are good although their 2.2 D-4D could not make 100k km without pistons disintegrating.
And, both Z4 and Supra are made in the SAME factory, a BMW factory in Austria.
Maybe Toyota will learn how to make FINALLY something that does not remind people of microwave when they driving it. I yet to drive BMW that is not assembled better than ANY Toyota on the market.
Edit: If their quality control is anything like in SIenna people can expect: failing brakes, constantly rattling windows, freezing to death on cold mornings, and plastic and steering wheel material that after 55k looks like my BMW E34 when it had 485k km when I sold it.

Did you even watch the video edyvw? Go back and watch it from 8:14 to 9:31.
It clearly stated in the video that the Toyota engineers knew about BMW's reliability problems and that they were not "in line" with Toyota's reliability standards. When Toyota was doing their evaluation and testing of the parts BMW designed and manufactured for the new engine and car, thousands of them did not meet Toyota's quality/reliability/durability standards and were sent back to BMW for redesign/improvement. BMW was "taken aback" by this revelation but correlates well with my personal experience with thousands of BMWs and Toyotas over the better part of my 45 years in the car business. BMW tends to not pay a whole lot of attention to the long-term reliability/durability of their products/parts, just the end performance of their vehicles while they are relatively new (which is world class). For as long as I can remember, BMW has had problems with parts that fail prematurely, and sells replacement parts of identical design that will also fail prematurely (for exorbitant prices). Thank goodness for the aftermarket where there are improved non-OEM parts available for BMW products that answer the need for replacement parts that won't fail prematurely. As for Toyota's involvement in the development of BMW's new engine and car, IMO this will have a positive impact on the long term reliability/durability of all BMW products going forward.


Keep in mind Toyota customers are the intended audience for this film. Due to the reputation regarding reliability for both companies here's no doubt that Toyota was going to mention something about insuring the parts meet their "high" standards. Also the engine used in the Supra is a de-tuned version of the BMW variant and they did it via parts rather than software. This is important because , IMO, it limits the amount of aftermarket tuning. Aftermarket tuning is a problem for BMW.

Toyota simply does not design engines which make over 100hp/liter. Their customers don't demand that sort of performance so it made perfect sense for them to save money by teaming up with BMW. Especially since the engine of choice is the I6.

Finally, yes BMW parts are expensive but that's mostly due to volume. Toyota sells 10 million vehicles a year vs BMW 2.5 million.

It's also why BMW engineers their cars to last about 120k miles. They simply don't have the production capacity to engineer highly reliable, high volume, low margin vehicles. BMW also competes in the luxury market where success is about being "first to market' because that's what their customers want. Toyota not so much. Lexus really is nothing more than a Toyota with more sound deadening material and a Lexus badge. Don't get me wrong, Lexus is very reliable and that's what their customers want. A nicely appointed and reliable vehicle.






That was problem due to open deck construction of N55. However, that was not the problem for N54 and will not we a problem for B58.
But the video is absolute garbage, mostly because it is based on assumptions. Not once author is saying: according to (so we know who is the source of informations). Everything sounds like fairytale for Toyota fan boys, so they feel better when they sit in their Camry and strll 20mph below speed limit in the left lane.
 
[/quote]
That was problem due to open deck construction of N55. However, that was not the problem for N54 and will not we a problem for B58.
But the video is absolute garbage, mostly because it is based on assumptions. Not once author is saying: according to (so we know who is the source of informations). Everything sounds like fairytale for Toyota fan boys, so they feel better when they sit in their Camry and strll 20mph below speed limit in the left lane.[/quote]

Ya I was thinking with the context of warranty repairs and higher mileage reliability.

My understanding with the Supra-B58 is that power levels are pretty much locked in because lift has be physically reduced.

Hopefully Toyota won't have to worry about owners flashing the car to stock when they have a drivetrain issue.
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl







That was problem due to open deck construction of N55. However, that was not the problem for N54 and will not we a problem for B58.
But the video is absolute garbage, mostly because it is based on assumptions. Not once author is saying: according to (so we know who is the source of informations). Everything sounds like fairytale for Toyota fan boys, so they feel better when they sit in their Camry and strll 20mph below speed limit in the left lane.[/quote]

Quote
Ya I was thinking with the context of warranty repairs and higher mileage reliability.

My understanding with the Supra-B58 is that power levels are pretty much locked in because lift has be physically reduced.

Hopefully Toyota won't have to worry about owners flashing the car to stock when they have a drivetrain issue.

BMW never delivers engines to other companies that are on the same performance levels, unless that is RR, McLaren etc.
BMW would never allow itself to have their engine in Toyota with same hp and tq.
As for warranty, well, according to video, there is nothing to worry about
lol.gif
 
According to Motor Trend and available part numbers, the Z4 has the B38B30B engine and the Supra the B58B30C.

Apparently they are identical excluding the cylinder head, pistons, and turbocharger. None of the Supra engine parts are unique to the car. None.

So tell me what Toyota designed? The "pretty" body?
 
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
According to Motor Trend and available part numbers, the Z4 has the B38B30B engine and the Supra the B58B30C.

Apparently they are identical excluding the cylinder head, pistons, and turbocharger. None of the Supra engine parts are unique to the car. None.

So tell me what Toyota designed? The "pretty" body?


I think the cam profiles are lower on the Supra. I seem to remember that it was mentioned on the video done by Engineering Explained. Alleged reason was so they could reduce the height of the engine and therefore have it sit lower in the car to improve handling *wink, wink*.

Someone with more engine knowledge about engines would know how reducing the height of the valvetrain impacts the associated parts.
 
Its funny how people who have not owned one or driven one make these crazy comments. Because you read something on the internet it does not make it true.
[Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by SEBZX79
Its funny how people who have not owned one or driven one make these crazy comments. Because you read something on the internet it does not make it true.
[Linked Image]



Just admit it; deep down what you REALLY lust for is a vanilla sedan that you can drive for 300,000 bleak and joyless miles without doing anything other than changing the oil.
 
Originally Posted by MCompact

Just admit it; deep down what you REALLY lust for is a vanilla sedan that you can drive for 300,000 bleak and joyless miles without doing anything other than changing the oil.



You know, after a week that had the door locks fail on my Lotus (13k miles) and finding a puddle of brake fluid in the wheel of one of the old Rovers, sometimes painless, bleak and joyless has an appeal.......…...
 
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