New Z4

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by wag123



I told you that I was involved in the car business for the better part of 45 years so I have SOME experience in these things. Not EVERYONE is capable of doing their own repairs and maintenance (I am). $1200 is about the going price of BMW brake jobs at both of the BMW dealers here (more on some high performance models). $900-$1000 is what most of the BMW specialists charge. Sienna brake jobs are a fraction of this because THE ROTORS CAN BE RESURFACED. I notice that you didn't argue about $1400 sets of tires. You must be independently wealthy edyvw.



BMW is turning rotors now, but ya. $1200 for full set of brakes by an Indy sounds about right.


I forgot to add:

Typical A/S tires on BMWs run less than $1k for a set and last about 40-50k miles.

Brakes last over 50k miles under normal driving. Example: I'm still on my original set at 50k miles / 57 months.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


I forgot to add:

Typical A/S tires on BMWs run less than $1k for a set and last about 40-50k miles.

Brakes last over 50k miles under normal driving. Example: I'm still on my original set at 50k miles / 57 months.



That's been my experience as well. I did pay a bit over $1k for the set of PSS tires I put on the 2er but that was due in part to my insistence on star rated rubber; in any case they are worth every penny.
But then both of us have actually owned BMWs, so our experiences aren't really valid.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


I forgot to add:

Typical A/S tires on BMWs run less than $1k for a set and last about 40-50k miles.

Brakes last over 50k miles under normal driving. Example: I'm still on my original set at 50k miles / 57 months.



That's been my experience as well. I did pay a bit over $1k for the set of PSS tires I put on the 2er but that was due in part to my insistence on star rated rubber; in any case they are worth every penny.
But then both of us have actually owned BMWs, so our experiences aren't really valid.

Wait, are you saying that second cousins friend cousin might be wrong?

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
No wonder you WERE in the business.
That was uncalled-for, I am RETIRED edy.

Originally Posted by edyvw
So Toyota Quality Control allows resurfacing? LOL. But to talk about quality, and then resurfacing is really something special.
There isn't anything wrong with resurfacing rotors when they are quality parts, ENGINEERED to be resurfaced, and done properly. When properly done, braking performance is NOT compromised by rotor resurfacing.
I don't know what the problem is with the brakes on your Sienna. On my Sienna I have only replaced the pads three times (OEM from new, then Akebono three times) and resurfaced the OEM rotors once (at the second pad change with plenty of meat left afterwards). No brake vibration in over 170k miles and very low rotor and pad wear with the Akebono Pro-ACT ceramic pads. If you think that I'm easy on the brakes, I'm not. I have two trailers that I frequently pull and I often have the van loaded with weight, so much so that I had to install load leveling air bags in the back. Since I do them myself, I have only spent about $400 on the Sienna's brakes in 170k miles, including fluid flushes. I don't believe that there is a BMW owner on the planet that can make this claim.

Originally Posted by edyvw
when my wife and I were dating, before we knew each other that good, she went to Discount tire with her 2006 Nissan Sentra Limited Edition and got two Michelin Primacy tires for $800. I think size was 195/50 R15, but not sure. For Nissan Sentra!!!
She was ROBBED!!! I bought an entire set of Michelin Primacys for the Sienna for less than that, mounted and balanced with road hazard and tax.
Many/most BMW models use different sizes on the front and rear (so they can't be rotated) and require high performance run-flats. The high performance run-flat tires that most BMW models use are substantially more expensive and wear out very quickly (typically in only 30k miles or less on high performance run flats). You have spent $2500 on tires in 2 years and they are not even run-flats!

Originally Posted by edyvw
The 2GR-FE needs eternity to warm up.
I will will have to agree with you on this one. But, since I live in Texas, this is not really a big problem for me. A/C performance is far more important here. In my experience, Toyota A/C systems perform better than BMW A/C systems.

When it comes to long-term reliability/durability, my Sienna has had ZERO repairs in 14 years and 170k miles, NOTHING other than regular maintenance and replacement of normal wear items. The facts speak for themselves.
At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince you that German vehicles are more expensive to purchase/own and have more reliability/durability problems, and you aren't going to convince me otherwise, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by MCompact

But then both of us have actually owned BMWs

I have actually owned one BMW and two VWs, and I have worked on hundreds of them, so I do have SOME experience with them.
I want to also point out that most of the members on this forum will not experience many of the reliability/durability issues (and associated costs) that the average John-Q-Public will experience. As a group, the members on this forum are more mechanically inclined, maintain their vehicles more carefully, and recognize/address minor issues before they become major costly problems. The bottom line is that this forum is probably not the best place to find truly accurate reliability/durability information on ANY make of vehicle. That being said, in the real world, most average BMW owners are going to have far more issues that need to be addressed than most average Toyota owners, and the associated costs are going to be far higher on the average BMW in the long run.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
No wonder you WERE in the business.
That was uncalled-for, I am RETIRED edy.

Originally Posted by edyvw
So Toyota Quality Control allows resurfacing? LOL. But to talk about quality, and then resurfacing is really something special.
There isn't anything wrong with resurfacing rotors when they are quality parts, ENGINEERED to be resurfaced, and done properly. When properly done, braking performance is NOT compromised by rotor resurfacing.
I don't know what the problem is with the brakes on your Sienna. On my Sienna I have only replaced the pads three times (OEM from new, then Akebono three times) and resurfaced the OEM rotors once (at the second pad change with plenty of meat left afterwards). No brake vibration in over 170k miles and very low rotor and pad wear with the Akebono Pro-ACT ceramic pads. If you think that I'm easy on the brakes, I'm not. I have two trailers that I frequently pull and I often have the van loaded with weight, so much so that I had to install load leveling air bags in the back. Since I do them myself, I have only spent about $400 on the Sienna's brakes in 170k miles, including fluid flushes. I don't believe that there is a BMW owner on the planet that can make this claim.

Originally Posted by edyvw
when my wife and I were dating, before we knew each other that good, she went to Discount tire with her 2006 Nissan Sentra Limited Edition and got two Michelin Primacy tires for $800. I think size was 195/50 R15, but not sure. For Nissan Sentra!!!
She was ROBBED!!! I bought an entire set of Michelin Primacys for the Sienna for less than that, mounted and balanced with road hazard and tax.
Many/most BMW models use different sizes on the front and rear (so they can't be rotated) and require high performance run-flats. The high performance run-flat tires that most BMW models use are substantially more expensive and wear out very quickly (typically in only 30k miles or less on high performance run flats). You have spent $2500 on tires in 2 years and they are not even run-flats!

Originally Posted by edyvw
The 2GR-FE needs eternity to warm up.
I will will have to agree with you on this one. But, since I live in Texas, this is not really a big problem for me. A/C performance is far more important here. In my experience, Toyota A/C systems perform better than BMW A/C systems.

When it comes to long-term reliability/durability, my Sienna has had ZERO repairs in 14 years and 170k miles, NOTHING other than regular maintenance and replacement of normal wear items. The facts speak for themselves.
At the end of the day, I'm not going to convince you that German vehicles are more expensive to purchase/own and have more reliability/durability problems, and you aren't going to convince me otherwise, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

Toyota makes rotors to warp, so that one can go and resurface them. On what planet is that quality? I am seriously interested in that.
I had once Akebono pads on VW CC. Just wanted to try them. Took them off after 3k and said that NO vehicle with those pads will ever come in my garage!!! For me 10ft better braking is FAR more important than whether pad will last 30 or 80k. Actually I do not want pads lasting that long because they compromise performance for longevity.
The reason why I immediately changed rotors on SIenna is that I own also Land Cruiser 3.0 D-4D in Europe (what is here Lexus GX470). Besides below average reliability of an engine, I have never replaced so many rotors and bushings on any vehicle that I had. As soon as I felt slight vibrations on SIenna (they were vibrating when I got the car, but I got pretty good deal so I did not want to argue over that), I just went with EBC rotors bcs. eventually EBC rotors solved problems on Land Crusier. Now, EBC makes rotors that do not vibrate and do not warp. No need for resurfacing. Which tells me they are of HIGHER quality than Toyota OE rotors (besides, they brake far better). Unfortunately ATE, Textar etc. do not make pads and rotors for SIenna, or at least I was not able to get them. But, Akebono? I would not put that on my car if someone gave it to me for free.
As for Michelin Primacy, they were that expensive bcs. it is very limited tire size. My point is that one could spend a lot of money for any vehicle when tires are in question. I posted you numbers how much I spent for X5 and how much I spent for Xi2 for Sienna. I got brand new Bridgestone Driveguards RFT (since AWD Sienna does not have spare) when I got vehicle. So I will see how much are 235/55 R18 Michelin or Continental summer or high performance all season are once these wear out (which I hope is soon as they are horrid).

 

[HoosierJeeper]

I've never owned a BMW (but like them), only Euro vehicle I've owned is my 07 Land Rover LR3. It seems like Euro stuff does much better with rust resistance. At least my LR3 didn't have to have the frame recalled like a Tacoma or Tundra. LOL

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota makes rotors to warp, so that one can go and resurface them.
Nonsense! 170k on my OEM rotors PROVES you wrong. BTW, I didn't resurface the rotors on my Sienna because they were warped or vibrating, I did it to clean them up and give the new brake pads a fresh wear surface and better bite. I don't know why you like EBC rotors so much, they don't cast the rotors themselves, they buy them from outside vendors.

Originally Posted by edyvw
For me 10ft better braking is FAR more important than whether pad will last 30 or 80k. Actually I do not want pads lasting that long because they compromise performance for longevity.
You must drive like a maniac. Frankly, I am able to brake hard on a clean dry paved road surface and activate the ABS every time, WITH my old resurfaced 170k mile OEM rotors AND Akebono brake pads, so the brakes are performing well enough to reach the tire's braking adhesion limits and it is unlikely that I would gain a 10' braking advantage with different brake pads.

Originally Posted by edyvw
I own also Land Cruiser 3.0 D-4D in Europe (what is here Lexus GX470). Besides below average reliability of an engine, I have never replaced so many rotors and bushings on any vehicle that I had.
Why do you own a vehicle that you hate so much? Since you are a devout German vehicle fanboy, why don't you get rid of the Land Cruiser and buy a Mercedes G-Class? FYI, Toyota doesn't sell a diesel powered passenger vehicle in the USA, and never has.

Originally Posted by edyvw
I got brand new Bridgestone Driveguards RFT (since AWD Sienna does not have spare) when I got vehicle. So I will see how much are 235/55 R18 Michelin or Continental summer or high performance all season are once these wear out (which I hope is soon as they are horrid).
I hear you loud and clear. I don't like Bridgestone tires either, and I HATE run-flats.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by edyvw
Toyota makes rotors to warp, so that one can go and resurface them.
Nonsense! 170k on my OEM rotors PROVES you wrong. BTW, I didn't resurface the rotors on my Sienna because they were warped or vibrating, I did it to clean them up and give the new brake pads a fresh wear surface and better bite. I don't know why you like EBC rotors so much, they don't cast the rotors themselves, they buy them from outside vendors.

Originally Posted by edyvw
For me 10ft better braking is FAR more important than whether pad will last 30 or 80k. Actually I do not want pads lasting that long because they compromise performance for longevity.
You must drive like a maniac. Frankly, I am able to brake hard on a clean dry paved road surface and activate the ABS every time, WITH my old resurfaced 170k mile OEM rotors AND Akebono brake pads, so the brakes are performing well enough to reach the tire's braking adhesion limits and it is unlikely that I would gain a 10' braking advantage with different brake pads.

Originally Posted by edyvw
I own also Land Cruiser 3.0 D-4D in Europe (what is here Lexus GX470). Besides below average reliability of an engine, I have never replaced so many rotors and bushings on any vehicle that I had.
Why do you own a vehicle that you hate so much? Since you are a devout German vehicle fanboy, why don't you get rid of the Land Cruiser and buy a Mercedes G-Class? FYI, Toyota doesn't sell a diesel powered passenger vehicle in the USA, and never has.

Originally Posted by edyvw
I got brand new Bridgestone Driveguards RFT (since AWD Sienna does not have spare) when I got vehicle. So I will see how much are 235/55 R18 Michelin or Continental summer or high performance all season are once these wear out (which I hope is soon as they are horrid).
I hear you loud and clear. I don't like Bridgestone tires either, and I HATE run-flats.

Vibrating rotors on my Land Cruiser PROVE you wrong. Lack of vibration after so many sets PROVES that issue is quality of rotors on Land Cruiser not size, driving habits etc. I do not like EBC any more than others, they were easier to access than my preferred rotor manufacturers like Brembo, ATE or TMD.
Why I bought Land Cruiser? Needed vehicle with real off road capabilities and that one was much better deal than Mercedes G. There is a reason why LC is much cheaper than Mercedes G, and that is overall much better quality of G, especially when it comes to engine and transmission. But, I did not want to spend so much money on a vehicle that I do not drive that often. In retrospect, probably I should have. I am very well aware what kind of diesels are available in the US. Reason why Toyota does not sell diesels here is that they are of questionable reliability, at best.
As for how I drive? Well every time I ski, brakes are required to do some work going downhill in the Rocky Mountains, although I downshift as much as possible. I personally find going 90-100mph not big of a deal, but it seams that SIenna does not like it for whatever reason, but yeah, I usually drive it like it is a car not a minivan (well in reality it is a car). If it cannot handle that, then there are quality issues. My german cars handle it with absolutely no sweat (though they are capable of much higher speeds without sounding inside like Space shuttle is being launched).

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by HoosierJeeper
I've never owned a BMW (but like them), only Euro vehicle I've owned is my 07 Land Rover LR3. It seems like Euro stuff does much better with rust resistance. At least my LR3 didn't have to have the frame recalled like a Tacoma or Tundra. LOL

ANY German vehicle has better rust protection than ANY Asian vehicle.
In Europe they lost 20 years of market penetration because of that reason.

 

[PimTac]

It's time to ⬛ï¸â¬›ï¸ you. No need to read blowhard comments.

 

[MCompact]

About the only time I activate the ABS-on dry pavement-in my F22 is on the track. It's not all that easy in the wet either. I credit the PSS rubber.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by PimTac
It's time to ⬛ï¸â¬›ï¸ you. No need to read blowhard comments.

Rust protection on a side. Body on my SIenna is soooooo thin that I am afraid that living in hail capitol in the US might be detrimental to my safety once summer comes.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MCompact
About the only time I activate the ABS-on dry pavement-in my F22 is on the track. It's not all that easy in the wet either. I credit the PSS rubber.

Yep, activating ABS when I had PSS on VW CC was really, really hard. Though having PSS on the car, it is more important looking at the rearview mirror.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac
It's time to ⬛ï¸â¬›ï¸ you. No need to read blowhard comments.

Rust protection on a side. Body on my SIenna is soooooo thin that I am afraid that living in hail capitol in the US might be detrimental to my safety once summer comes.

Since you hate it so much, you should get rid of the Sienna too. Nobody is forcing you to own awful poor quality unsafe Toyota vehicles edy. After you get rid of the Sienna and Land Cruiser, you should not buy another miserable Toyota product again. Stick with quality German built vehicles, they make you feel safe and happy. Cost of ownership be dam'd, life is too short.

 

[4wd]

Responsible dad now … should move on past BMW and Toyota and get the VW Atlas …

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Responsible dad now … should move on past BMW and Toyota and get the VW Atlas …

How about a BMW X7, or Audi Q7, or Mercedes GLS, or Mercedes Metris (if he NEEDS a minivan)? He should be able to find a really good deal on a used VW Routan, quality German engineering and rust protection on that minivan

 

[PimTac]

There should be some Vanagons left around. A great example of VAG quality.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Responsible dad now … should move on past BMW and Toyota and get the VW Atlas …

In retrospect that was mistake as I was going between Atlas and Sienna. Reason why I went with Sienna is ultimate space that minivan offers plus kudos to Toyota offering AWD on minivan, which for my needs is very important. But, considering all the downsides of Toyota (like inability to make rearview mirrors not moving forward when braking, or back when accelerating, or assembling windows that do not rattle), Atlas was better option.
But, no I will not sell it. Will just get other car like BMW 335i or Audi S4, take kids to daycare, skiing, etc. in that. Sienna can serve for time when my mother in law comes to visit.

 

[MCompact]

I never let my responsibilities as a father sentence me to deadly dull vehicles. I took my son to school in a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe with a five speed manual and followed up with the Wrangler Sahara I still have. I share the automotive philosophy of fellow Kentuckian the late David E. Davis Jr.- No boring cars!