It's not normal oversteer, it's Snap oversteer, and that is a shocking turn of events let me tell u
New tires on rear...why?
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Originally Posted By: rpn453
Not a problem if the tires have similar tread depth. You just don't want a new tire on the front with a worn-out tire on the back because you could spin if you lose only the back end in snow or in a hydroplane situation while cornering. The sort of sudden oversteer you could get if only the rear end hydroplanes cannot be controlled even by an elite driver.
In a common nose heavy FWD car, this is true. With some vehicle configurations it is possible for a decent (no expert required) driver familiar with the vehicle and decent tires to plant the back down through the water in a tenth of a second or so which should be more than fast enough to recover. I know this to be true because I've personally owned three cars (still have two of them) over the years where this was possible and I'm far from being an expert driver. If I were an expert driver I would know better than to have learned this works in one of those three cars.
Not a problem if the tires have similar tread depth. You just don't want a new tire on the front with a worn-out tire on the back because you could spin if you lose only the back end in snow or in a hydroplane situation while cornering. The sort of sudden oversteer you could get if only the rear end hydroplanes cannot be controlled even by an elite driver.
In a common nose heavy FWD car, this is true. With some vehicle configurations it is possible for a decent (no expert required) driver familiar with the vehicle and decent tires to plant the back down through the water in a tenth of a second or so which should be more than fast enough to recover. I know this to be true because I've personally owned three cars (still have two of them) over the years where this was possible and I'm far from being an expert driver. If I were an expert driver I would know better than to have learned this works in one of those three cars.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Oversteer is easier to control, in my opinion.
Absolutely. For me, when I did a two tire replacement, they always wound up in the front, RWD or otherwise. That's especially important in the winter. I'd rather have a bit of oversteer, which is easier to control as you mentioned, than have no steering at all.
But, I'd prefer to replace all four and be done with it. With proper rotations (assuming that's possible), one shouldn't have two worn tires necessitating replacement and two others with half their life left.
Oversteer is easier to control, in my opinion.
Absolutely. For me, when I did a two tire replacement, they always wound up in the front, RWD or otherwise. That's especially important in the winter. I'd rather have a bit of oversteer, which is easier to control as you mentioned, than have no steering at all.
But, I'd prefer to replace all four and be done with it. With proper rotations (assuming that's possible), one shouldn't have two worn tires necessitating replacement and two others with half their life left.
crinkles, I've never met anybody who would recommend the news on the front.
same argument was used for crossply and radials, and was actually in the manuals through the 70s.
Understeer, and the driver backs off, or brakes instinctively...causing a "better" outcome than ploughing off the road.
Oversteer, and (most) drivers back off, or brake instinctively...sometimes reversing into the scenery.
Oversteer management is a learned response (and way more fun to those who like it).
Once pushed an R16 into snap FWD oversteer, and was really along for the ride.
same argument was used for crossply and radials, and was actually in the manuals through the 70s.
Understeer, and the driver backs off, or brakes instinctively...causing a "better" outcome than ploughing off the road.
Oversteer, and (most) drivers back off, or brake instinctively...sometimes reversing into the scenery.
Oversteer management is a learned response (and way more fun to those who like it).
Once pushed an R16 into snap FWD oversteer, and was really along for the ride.
Originally Posted By: crinkles
Every tire shop and driver education "teacher" i've spoken too absolutely insist on new tyres on the front. Maybe different weather?
To be fair, I've certainly heard the same recommendation here in North America from some very reputable sources. Popular Mechanics printed that recommendation in a column some time ago. Tire shops here seem to stick with the same recommendation, at least that's the way it is with the ones I've dealt with over the years. In the taxis, it wasn't too much of a problem. We rotated regularly and tended to replace by complete sets. The only time less than a set was replaced was when one was replaced because it was damaged beyond repair, but that was the practice only if the other three had plenty of miles left in them.
Up here, even with RWD, when the ice is bad enough, it's difficult enough to coax the vehicle to turn with good tires, let alone bad ones.
Every tire shop and driver education "teacher" i've spoken too absolutely insist on new tyres on the front. Maybe different weather?
To be fair, I've certainly heard the same recommendation here in North America from some very reputable sources. Popular Mechanics printed that recommendation in a column some time ago. Tire shops here seem to stick with the same recommendation, at least that's the way it is with the ones I've dealt with over the years. In the taxis, it wasn't too much of a problem. We rotated regularly and tended to replace by complete sets. The only time less than a set was replaced was when one was replaced because it was damaged beyond repair, but that was the practice only if the other three had plenty of miles left in them.
Up here, even with RWD, when the ice is bad enough, it's difficult enough to coax the vehicle to turn with good tires, let alone bad ones.
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think it's completely unsafe to do, especially on a front wheel drive car, in the snow.
Yeah, the rear won't swing out - but the car also won't be able to stop, start or turn. All it can do is understeer.
Then don't cheap out and buy just 2 tires...replace all 4 if the fronts are that worn...otherwise, put the new ones on the back, the car will be safer.
This topic comes up about every 3-4 months on BITOG...and the same points are made...
I've watched cars lose control so many times (Vermont winters)...that I know that: what people think they can handle, and what they can actually handle, are two very, very different things...
It's not an issue I'll ever have. I bought 4 studded snow tires for my car and I rotate them around every winter. I'd rather have 4 good tires than 2 good and 2 not good.
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think it's completely unsafe to do, especially on a front wheel drive car, in the snow.
Yeah, the rear won't swing out - but the car also won't be able to stop, start or turn. All it can do is understeer.
Then don't cheap out and buy just 2 tires...replace all 4 if the fronts are that worn...otherwise, put the new ones on the back, the car will be safer.
This topic comes up about every 3-4 months on BITOG...and the same points are made...
I've watched cars lose control so many times (Vermont winters)...that I know that: what people think they can handle, and what they can actually handle, are two very, very different things...
It's not an issue I'll ever have. I bought 4 studded snow tires for my car and I rotate them around every winter. I'd rather have 4 good tires than 2 good and 2 not good.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Just one reason I loathe wrong wheel drive!
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Just one reason I loathe wrong wheel drive!
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dparm
Oversteer is easier to control, in my opinion.
Absolutely. For me, when I did a two tire replacement, they always wound up in the front, RWD or otherwise. That's especially important in the winter. I'd rather have a bit of oversteer, which is easier to control as you mentioned, than have no steering at all.
But, I'd prefer to replace all four and be done with it. With proper rotations (assuming that's possible), one shouldn't have two worn tires necessitating replacement and two others with half their life left.
I sort of agree with the oversteer thing, a bit is nice! Just not too much... I guess if you are always a bit fearful of the backend and are "ready" for it, you can live with it. But long trips in the snow can wear you down and then, whoops!
Here's a run of one of my silly oversteer autocross setups on too fast a course for it... This was our clubs first setup on the oval and it was not too safe! We have since learned how to set it up to be fun but not so fast between concrete walls...
Anyways it would've been faster to have a setup I could push a bit instead of chasing the back end.
Originally Posted By: dparm
Oversteer is easier to control, in my opinion.
Absolutely. For me, when I did a two tire replacement, they always wound up in the front, RWD or otherwise. That's especially important in the winter. I'd rather have a bit of oversteer, which is easier to control as you mentioned, than have no steering at all.
But, I'd prefer to replace all four and be done with it. With proper rotations (assuming that's possible), one shouldn't have two worn tires necessitating replacement and two others with half their life left.
I sort of agree with the oversteer thing, a bit is nice! Just not too much... I guess if you are always a bit fearful of the backend and are "ready" for it, you can live with it. But long trips in the snow can wear you down and then, whoops!
Here's a run of one of my silly oversteer autocross setups on too fast a course for it... This was our clubs first setup on the oval and it was not too safe! We have since learned how to set it up to be fun but not so fast between concrete walls...
Anyways it would've been faster to have a setup I could push a bit instead of chasing the back end.
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
IMO, new tires belong on the front, provided the driver knows what he's doing. I would MUCH rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
I'm with Steve - you say that because you haven't actually experienced the oversteer that everyone is describing...it's not a racetrack/powerslide/have fun oversteer (I used to have a T/A, had fun with it)...it's a snap/spin loss of control...think old 911 leaving road backwards after lift-throttle oversteer that was uncontrollable...
Watch the Tire Rack video.
A trained, experienced driver, who knows it is coming, still loses control. I'll say that again, when the driver knows it is coming, he still loses control...
You don't have that advantage of foresight on the street.
If you're so hard up for cash that you can't afford 4 decent tires, then you're really not going to be able to afford the cost of the crash for mounting 2 new tires on the front...
IMO, new tires belong on the front, provided the driver knows what he's doing. I would MUCH rather deal with oversteer than understeer.
I'm with Steve - you say that because you haven't actually experienced the oversteer that everyone is describing...it's not a racetrack/powerslide/have fun oversteer (I used to have a T/A, had fun with it)...it's a snap/spin loss of control...think old 911 leaving road backwards after lift-throttle oversteer that was uncontrollable...
Watch the Tire Rack video.
A trained, experienced driver, who knows it is coming, still loses control. I'll say that again, when the driver knows it is coming, he still loses control...
You don't have that advantage of foresight on the street.
If you're so hard up for cash that you can't afford 4 decent tires, then you're really not going to be able to afford the cost of the crash for mounting 2 new tires on the front...
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Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Just one reason I loathe wrong wheel drive!
One of many!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
Just one reason I loathe wrong wheel drive!
One of many!
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
I do hate FWD (and don't own anything FWD). I have, however, experienced snap oversteer with it when playing around in icy snow. Lifted off the throttle a hair too much and the back end started to come around FAST. I turned the wheel to go along with it (opposite of countersteer) and let it spin tightly. Didn't travel all that far, as it kept the spin tight by not trying to fight it, and scrubbed my speed down to near zero pretty quickly. I ended up still pretty close to where I started to spin (maybe 2 carlengths further down the parking lot), in the same spot in the left/right plane, and facing 180* from how I started. Definitely scared me a little, but nothing too bad.
As far as the Jeep, when the rear end starts to go, it's slow and progressive, so I'd definitely rather deal with that than understeer.
I thought I knew how to drive also, and FWD completely took me by surprise one day.
Most people here talking about how much they love oversteer have obviously not had the pleasure of a snap spin in a fwd vehicle.
They can come around so hard and fast you will NOT simply catch it and drive out of it.
I do hate FWD (and don't own anything FWD). I have, however, experienced snap oversteer with it when playing around in icy snow. Lifted off the throttle a hair too much and the back end started to come around FAST. I turned the wheel to go along with it (opposite of countersteer) and let it spin tightly. Didn't travel all that far, as it kept the spin tight by not trying to fight it, and scrubbed my speed down to near zero pretty quickly. I ended up still pretty close to where I started to spin (maybe 2 carlengths further down the parking lot), in the same spot in the left/right plane, and facing 180* from how I started. Definitely scared me a little, but nothing too bad.
As far as the Jeep, when the rear end starts to go, it's slow and progressive, so I'd definitely rather deal with that than understeer.
The problem with the post above is that you were admittedly playing around, so a response like you got was not a total and complete surprise.
I'd consider myself a competent and very capable winter driver (you tend to learn a few tricks when driving a 2wd truck for many years in Minnesota). With all that said, while driving a FWD sedan, I had the rear end snap out on braking so fast that I did a 360 through an intersection in the blink of an eye. By the time you percieved the rear end was coming around, you were way, way into the spin. It happens that fast.
The correct answer in all of this is to have 4 good tires.
I'd consider myself a competent and very capable winter driver (you tend to learn a few tricks when driving a 2wd truck for many years in Minnesota). With all that said, while driving a FWD sedan, I had the rear end snap out on braking so fast that I did a 360 through an intersection in the blink of an eye. By the time you percieved the rear end was coming around, you were way, way into the spin. It happens that fast.
The correct answer in all of this is to have 4 good tires.
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
The problem with the post above is that you were admittedly playing around, so a response like you got was not a total and complete surprise.
I'd consider myself a competent and very capable winter driver (you tend to learn a few tricks when driving a 2wd truck for many years in Minnesota). With all that said, while driving a FWD sedan, I had the rear end snap out on braking so fast that I did a 360 through an intersection in the blink of an eye. By the time you percieved the rear end was coming around, you were way, way into the spin. It happens that fast.
The correct answer in all of this is to have 4 good tires.
Yup. It'll happen fast enough that you can't prevent the spin. You just have to get it to travel as little distance as possible while spinning and scrub momentum as quickly as possible.
The problem with the post above is that you were admittedly playing around, so a response like you got was not a total and complete surprise.
I'd consider myself a competent and very capable winter driver (you tend to learn a few tricks when driving a 2wd truck for many years in Minnesota). With all that said, while driving a FWD sedan, I had the rear end snap out on braking so fast that I did a 360 through an intersection in the blink of an eye. By the time you percieved the rear end was coming around, you were way, way into the spin. It happens that fast.
The correct answer in all of this is to have 4 good tires.
Yup. It'll happen fast enough that you can't prevent the spin. You just have to get it to travel as little distance as possible while spinning and scrub momentum as quickly as possible.
When I bought my Acura Integra GS-R, it still had the OE Michelin XGTs on it. The fronts were practically bald but the rear still had quite a bit of tread. So, I decided to save a few bucks, ignore what I had been recommending to customers for years, and put a new pair of Kumho 711s on the front with the age hardened but otherwise serviceable Michelins on the back. After all, they are Michelins....even dry hard and old they gotta' be better than Kumhos.
First corner I put it in had me near a full lock slide. On dry pavement!
If I had been 20 years younger, I would have fancied myself the "King Dorifto Superstar" FWD drift senstation....No, scratch that. If I had been an idiot teen driver I would have wadded the car backside first into the embankment with a lack of experience.
I slid it back around the cloverleaf, and went back to get two more Kumhos for the back.
The car handled well after that.
First corner I put it in had me near a full lock slide. On dry pavement!
If I had been 20 years younger, I would have fancied myself the "King Dorifto Superstar" FWD drift senstation....No, scratch that. If I had been an idiot teen driver I would have wadded the car backside first into the embankment with a lack of experience.
I slid it back around the cloverleaf, and went back to get two more Kumhos for the back.
The car handled well after that.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
I want good tires on the front so I can steer. I don't think any amount of convincing can change my mind.
And least you can admit you're being close minded.
But this issue is moot for me. AWD means I HAVE to have 4 matching tires. No more of the just replacing 2 of my RWD days.
I want good tires on the front so I can steer. I don't think any amount of convincing can change my mind.
And least you can admit you're being close minded.
But this issue is moot for me. AWD means I HAVE to have 4 matching tires. No more of the just replacing 2 of my RWD days.
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