New tires and always a balancing issue @ Discount Tire

Messages
2,575
Location
Northeast
Depends on what needs to be done. If the guy needs to break the bead and rotate the tire, then lots more time involved than a simple balance job.
Again, look at what he wrote.

"If that does not work, then they do a road-force balancing, "

Road force balancing is simply using the roller to apply pressure to the tire. That's it. That's all. It's not doing all that extra stuff you're talking about.
 

4WD

Messages
16,827
Location
Texas
Depends on what needs to be done. If the guy needs to break the bead and rotate the tire, then lots more time involved than a simple balance job.
The modern machines are sure faster than what we had 20 years ago …
them thar puters ya know💻 ⌨️🖥 …
If there is an issue … it’s likely lack of proper training
 
Messages
815
Location
GA
I've had the best luck with Discount up until my last rebalance which coincidentally I had done at a store I'd never been to, because the one I used closed. I honestly don't think they even tried to balance them.

Mavis is aggressively sleazy in my area. I won't ever set foot in one of those boiler rooms again. And of course I'll probably say that about Discount at some point.

It's not one chain or one location. It's the entire industry's business model. Sell as much as you can for as cheap as you can at minimal labor. Hmm there's a few other industries like that too. Mostly, just the ones that have profit as a driving force. Hmm...
 
Messages
1,531
Location
iowa
There is way too much to even start to explain the troubles I've seen balancing thousands of tires myself, and I have a RF balancer. There is no way you can do it quickly, and nobody wants to spend the time, and money for that, so that what happens. I have never had a comeback, even though I suspected I would from the RF numbers I had to let go. It's a art I am still trying to learn, but I always do multiple spins tweaking ta[e weights attach with masking tape until they are dialed in dynamically, and in static to less than .15oz total. Less than a rock pebble.
 
Messages
607
Location
New Jersey
I've had the best luck with Discount up until my last rebalance which coincidentally I had done at a store I'd never been to, because the one I used closed. I honestly don't think they even tried to balance them.

Mavis is aggressively sleazy in my area. I won't ever set foot in one of those boiler rooms again. And of course I'll probably say that about Discount at some point.

It's not one chain or one location. It's the entire industry's business model. Sell as much as you can for as cheap as you can at minimal labor. Hmm there's a few other industries like that too. Mostly, just the ones that have profit as a driving force. Hmm...
I’ve had no luck with Mavis out here. Firestone is worse however. Could stagger into a Firestone oasis for a gulp of water and they’d try to sell you a bucket of sand.
 
Messages
703
Location
MA, USA
Again, look at what he wrote.

"If that does not work, then they do a road-force balancing, "

Road force balancing is simply using the roller to apply pressure to the tire. That's it. That's all. It's not doing all that extra stuff you're talking about.

This is clearly what Tire Rack had in mind (I hope had not has) when I got my winter setup a few years back.
Even though they advertise that they do road force balancing the tires that I got for my Volvo S40 had 20+ lb force when it was checked at local recommended installer.
That meant that while they may be doing road force balancing they were not acting upon the numbers that they got and just shipped the assemblies.

Krzyś
 
Messages
2,575
Location
Northeast
"Road force balancing" is not just about balancing. It is about match mounting the tire to the wheel to minimize radial force variation.
Match mounting and road force balancing are two completely different things. The road force balancers can help with match mounting, but that is not at all what road force balancing is. Road force balancing is having the roller put pressure on the tire to simulate the surface of the road as the tire is spinning, why is this concept so hard for people to grasp here???

Do you really think that every time they road force balance a tire, they break the tire down and change the position of where the valve stem sits? OR, if they have trouble getting the tire to an acceptable road force level, that's when they start to take additional steps to correct any issues. Why would they match mount if the tire has an acceptable road force level when weight has been applied? Do you really think techs care that much?
 
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Messages
3,941
Location
Somewhere in the US
Match mounting and road force balancing are two completely different things. The road force balancers can help with match mounting, but that is not at all what road force balancing is. Road force balancing is having the roller put pressure on the tire to simulate the surface of the road as the tire is spinning, why is this concept so hard for people to grasp here???
Sorry, but that's not correct.

The wheel is measuring the run out - and if it is excessive, the value can be reduced by following a procedure that involves measuring the runout of the wheel, then matching the low point of the wheel with the high point of the tire - ergo, and lower overall runout.
 
Messages
27,568
Location
PNW
Again, look at what he wrote.

"If that does not work, then they do a road-force balancing, "

Road force balancing is simply using the roller to apply pressure to the tire. That's it. That's all. It's not doing all that extra stuff you're talking about.
ONLY if there is no extra work involved in order to get a proper road force balance, just as shown in the video. Also see post #24 above from someone who's done a lot of RF balance jobs. Everyting talked about in the video in post #17 beyond time 7:15 is going to take much more time.
 
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Messages
2,575
Location
Northeast
Sorry, but that's not correct.

The wheel is measuring the run out - and if it is excessive, the value can be reduced by following a procedure that involves measuring the runout of the wheel, then matching the low point of the wheel with the high point of the tire - ergo, and lower overall runout.
It sounds like you're talking about Forcematching. I thought match mounting was when you physically shift the tire to a different position on the wheel in relation to the valve stem?

"ONLY if there is no extra work involved in order to get a proper road force balance, just as shown in the video. Also see post #24 above from someone who's done a lot of RF balance jobs. Everyting talked about in the video in post #17 beyond time 7:15 is going to take much more time."
I guess "much more time" is highly subjective

We've largely divulged into semantics here. When the roller is putting pressure against the tire, that's road force balancing to me, you and you'll never convince me otherwise.

It sounds like you guys are calling every single feature, every single thing that the machine does "road force balancing". I completely disagree with this, because that suggests that every time a tire is road force balanced, that all these features the machine offers are utilized, which simply isn't true.

A tire that only had the roller applied, got a good roadforce number, and nothing else was done - roadforce balanced (YES in mind)
A tire that had the roller applied, tire dismounted and shifted to achieve a perfect match mount, a tire which had forcematching done, a tire which had the inner and outer runout of the rim checked, and every single other thing the machine can do - roadforce balance?? No, that doesn't happen every time, so you shouldn't call that all of that a roadforce balance, you only call what is done every time, the roller against the tire, a roadforce balance.
 

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Messages
3,941
Location
Somewhere in the US
It sounds like you're talking about Forcematching. I thought match mounting was when you physically shift the tire to a different position on the wheel in relation to the valve stem?


I guess "much more time" is highly subjective

We've largely divulged into semantics here. When the roller is putting pressure against the tire, that's road force balancing to me, you and you'll never convince me otherwise.

It sounds like you guys are calling every single feature, every single thing that the machine does "road force balancing". I completely disagree with this, because that suggests that every time a tire is road force balanced, that all these features the machine offers are utilized, which simply isn't true.

A tire that only had the roller applied, got a good roadforce number, and nothing else was done - roadforce balanced (YES in mind)
A tire that had the roller applied, tire dismounted and shifted to achieve a perfect match mount, a tire which had forcematching done, a tire which had the inner and outer runout of the rim checked, and every single other thing the machine can do - roadforce balance?? No, that doesn't happen every time, so you shouldn't call that all of that a roadforce balance, you only call what is done every time, the roller against the tire, a roadforce balance.
First, there a lot of different terms for the same thing. Match mounting, Force matching, Indexing, etc - AND Road Force Balance. If you want to distinguish between measuring and physically moving the tire relative to the rim, OK, but be aware that is NOT common usage of the word.

Using your methodology, measuring the balance and finding the tire doesn't need any weights isn't "balancing".
 
Messages
5
Location
florida
Depends on what needs to be done. If the guy needs to break the bead and rotate the tire, then lots more time involved than a simple balance job.
Enthusiasts- I have run into this problem also. I used to buy new tires(generally Michaelins on my 2005 MB). Typically not balanced well. I drive from Florida to the west at least once a year and am on interstates for many miles. When you have tires out of balance you notice it in the steering wheel every second and it drives you (me crazy). Road force balancing is better(one MB dealer in Houston) only uses road force balancing. I stopped there because new tires I had balanced by the dealer were not balanced very well. I recently bought a tire at GoodYear but they do not have a roadforce balancing machine. UTube has a good video what is involved. The machine is more expensive and it's more time consuming. My sense is that most tire installers are typically younger and don't get the experience or don't have the work ethic to do a good job or don't care to.
 
Messages
1,510
Location
Warner Robins, GA
I use discount tire for all my tire needs and have for the past 10+years. One thing that I noticed the last 2 sets of tires I purchased was that they never get the balancing done right and I have to come back to get them rebalanced. It happened again this Saturday - I got 4 new tires on 2 vehicles....both driving home had a slight off balance and went back to get them rebalanced. They are correct and smooth now but why do they mess up such an important step of tire installation so often? Anybody else have this problem?

Oh and I got new Cooper Discoverer AT3 4S's on the Grand Cherokee to replace the AT3's on it that delivered outstanding service and 56k miles. The RAM had the same Cooper AT3's but this time I went with the Cooper Discoverer HT Plus. I got good use out the the AT3's on the RAM with 63k miles but just wanted a regular non all terrain this time and didn't want to spend as much. Last year I put the Cooper CS5 Ultra touring on my CTS and they're doing very well so far.

Everyone makes mistakes, but from my experience around here I'd bet on Discount getting it right over most other tire places.. Also all my store does now is the roadforce balancing.

I'm curious how you like the Cooper Discover HT Plus's on your Ram.. I've been considering them. I like that they have the XL rating, but have been somewhat concerned that they don't have any sort of treadwear warranty.
 
Messages
1,531
Location
iowa
The bigger issue is all about time/money. Who wants to spend $100+ to have their tires balanced and all dialed in as good as reasonably possible.
 
Messages
703
Location
MA, USA
I do. Vibration is bad for my mental health and car too ;-)

I will be going for road force balance with my winter setup soon.

Krzyś
 
Messages
3,341
Location
Idaho
Sometimes you need a bent wheel to make a RF balancer happy with many tires.
I think every wheel should be manufactured with the center bore (and stud bores) offset from true center by .005" to .01" to accommodate all the millions of tires that lack excellent uniformity.
 
Messages
27,568
Location
PNW
I guess "much more time" is highly subjective

We've largely divulged into semantics here. When the roller is putting pressure against the tire, that's road force balancing to me, you and you'll never convince me otherwise.

It sounds like you guys are calling every single feature, every single thing that the machine does "road force balancing". I completely disagree with this, because that suggests that every time a tire is road force balanced, that all these features the machine offers are utilized, which simply isn't true.

A tire that only had the roller applied, got a good roadforce number, and nothing else was done - roadforce balanced (YES in mind)
A tire that had the roller applied, tire dismounted and shifted to achieve a perfect match mount, a tire which had forcematching done, a tire which had the inner and outer runout of the rim checked, and every single other thing the machine can do - roadforce balance?? No, that doesn't happen every time, so you shouldn't call that all of that a roadforce balance, you only call what is done every time, the roller against the tire, a roadforce balance.

Yes, if the machine puts a load on the tire during the balancing process then it's a "road force" balance job. And if a road force balance machine shows to have no issues, and all that's needed is some wheel weights attached to the wheel then the time it takes is the same.

BUT, if it shows other issues (that an non-road force balancer would never show), then there is a lot more involvement required to get an acceptable road force balance. So yes, everything that is involved in order to get the wheel/tire assembly to pass a road force balance is a technically a road force balance ... including having to break the bead, rotate the tire, etc because it's the road force balance machine that told you that was part of not achieving an acceptable road force balance.
 
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