I agree that the "correct" way is to put the new on the back, but being an old timer that is more used to RWD than FWD, and being comfortable with oversteer, and understeer scarring the you know what out of me, I think I still prefer oversteer.
New tires always go in front?
- Thread starter KingCake
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Originally Posted By: old1
I agree that the "correct" way is to put the new on the back, but being an old timer that is more used to RWD than FWD, and being comfortable with oversteer, and understeer scarring the you know what out of me, I think I still prefer oversteer.
+2.
I agree that the "correct" way is to put the new on the back, but being an old timer that is more used to RWD than FWD, and being comfortable with oversteer, and understeer scarring the you know what out of me, I think I still prefer oversteer.
+2.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
He just didn't want anybody using it after him.
What did he do with his old cars...bury them?
Heh...every one that I am aware of was sold for parts. I do remember him selling a '70s Comet or Maverick with the caveat that it had to be towed away and then seeing that the buyers were going to drive away in it...he ran out and yelled at them because he had told them the car had no brakes left.
The buyers, who appeared to be temporary visitors from a country immediately to the South of the USA, told him they would be careful and drove off. Dad tried to call the cops on them...
He did tell me that he sold one car immediately after he bought it, he used to buy cars from the owner of the machinery company he worked for after the guy had them for a year or two. The owner bought what I think was a Lincoln, probably in the late '30s (???), and then offered to sell it to my dad after a very short time. Dad thought that he was so lucky to get a nearly new car, but it turned out that it was an early front wheel drive car that had monstrous torque steer. He took it for a spin down Sheridan Rd or Lake Shore Blvd in Evanston and completely failed to make a sudden turn in the road, went careening across somebody's yard. Dad immediately dumped the car onto another sucker.
I know I looked up the car in the past, but I can't find it right now...
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
He just didn't want anybody using it after him.
What did he do with his old cars...bury them?
Heh...every one that I am aware of was sold for parts. I do remember him selling a '70s Comet or Maverick with the caveat that it had to be towed away and then seeing that the buyers were going to drive away in it...he ran out and yelled at them because he had told them the car had no brakes left.
The buyers, who appeared to be temporary visitors from a country immediately to the South of the USA, told him they would be careful and drove off. Dad tried to call the cops on them...
He did tell me that he sold one car immediately after he bought it, he used to buy cars from the owner of the machinery company he worked for after the guy had them for a year or two. The owner bought what I think was a Lincoln, probably in the late '30s (???), and then offered to sell it to my dad after a very short time. Dad thought that he was so lucky to get a nearly new car, but it turned out that it was an early front wheel drive car that had monstrous torque steer. He took it for a spin down Sheridan Rd or Lake Shore Blvd in Evanston and completely failed to make a sudden turn in the road, went careening across somebody's yard. Dad immediately dumped the car onto another sucker.
I know I looked up the car in the past, but I can't find it right now...
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
Even if the rear brake is doing only 1% of the braking it's keeping the rear end anchored. Like a boat's rudder.
That statement is, of course, in total contradiction to the commonly understood behavior of rubber tires which loose some, or all of their ability to resist sideforces under braking OR drive load. Why do front wheel drive cars understeer...because the up front weight combined with driving or braking force affect the tire's ability to develop cornering force.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
Even if the rear brake is doing only 1% of the braking it's keeping the rear end anchored. Like a boat's rudder.
That statement is, of course, in total contradiction to the commonly understood behavior of rubber tires which loose some, or all of their ability to resist sideforces under braking OR drive load. Why do front wheel drive cars understeer...because the up front weight combined with driving or braking force affect the tire's ability to develop cornering force.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
There are hundreds of posts already on this topic...in the tire forum.
Originally Posted By: JamesBond
Originally Posted By: tomcat27
the technically correct answer is the rear, because oversteer is more dangerous than understeer
...
...for inexperienced drivers that don't expect it, and are driving too fast.
Which is 90% of drivers on the road.
Originally Posted By: tomcat27
the technically correct answer is the rear, because oversteer is more dangerous than understeer
...
...for inexperienced drivers that don't expect it, and are driving too fast.
Which is 90% of drivers on the road.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
I assume one finger for a nose wheelie, just like mtb V-brakes.
In a straight line though I pretty much ignore the rear brake as its not going to do anything once I get the front brake optimized. In a hard corner though, then the rear comes into play and you have to adjust both brakes. Usually though its a choice to tighten your line, so less front brake and a bit more rear so you don't lose the front end. Or open your line, so more front brake can be used.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
I assume one finger for a nose wheelie, just like mtb V-brakes.
In a straight line though I pretty much ignore the rear brake as its not going to do anything once I get the front brake optimized. In a hard corner though, then the rear comes into play and you have to adjust both brakes. Usually though its a choice to tighten your line, so less front brake and a bit more rear so you don't lose the front end. Or open your line, so more front brake can be used.
Originally Posted By: supton
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
I only have discs on my crummy mountain bike, which I cannot get going very fast no matter what I do.
The rim brakes on my Bianchi "racer" stopped me plenty fast enough as long as they were dry...I think wet performance is the big advantage of discs. I did once make a guy I was riding with flip because I panicked...we were switching off taking the lead and I heard him say "watch out" when he was behind me. The road had been ground down and there was a sudden transition to clean pavement. I thought the step was 3-4 inches high at first glance and slowed down dramatically, assuming that he was doing so also.
The step was actually much less and he had no thoughts of slowing down...to avoid hitting me, he slammed both brakes hard and flew over his handlebars, hard enough for his cleats to unclip immediately.
I thought he should be furious for me for stopping so hard as the leader of our two man peloton, but he told me it was his fault for hitting both his brakes hard. I think he was being quite generous to me by deflecting the blame, the lead guy has to think about the riders behind him first.
Well, I have not tried a bike with disc brakes--do they brake that much harder?
I only have discs on my crummy mountain bike, which I cannot get going very fast no matter what I do.
The rim brakes on my Bianchi "racer" stopped me plenty fast enough as long as they were dry...I think wet performance is the big advantage of discs. I did once make a guy I was riding with flip because I panicked...we were switching off taking the lead and I heard him say "watch out" when he was behind me. The road had been ground down and there was a sudden transition to clean pavement. I thought the step was 3-4 inches high at first glance and slowed down dramatically, assuming that he was doing so also.
The step was actually much less and he had no thoughts of slowing down...to avoid hitting me, he slammed both brakes hard and flew over his handlebars, hard enough for his cleats to unclip immediately.
I thought he should be furious for me for stopping so hard as the leader of our two man peloton, but he told me it was his fault for hitting both his brakes hard. I think he was being quite generous to me by deflecting the blame, the lead guy has to think about the riders behind him first.
preferably four tires if you need tires. Unless you are buying the same tire and the two of them still have healthy tread. Otherwise I would put them in the back. As mentioned before, ETCG used to have some really good videos but I feel like now he is trying to keep his "brand" alive and the videos he has done as of recent has been sub-par. Shame, I really liked watching his stuff.
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
On the front for me, thanks.
Same here. Never a doubt.
On the front for me, thanks.
Same here. Never a doubt.
Originally Posted By: Oldmoparguy1
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
On the front for me, thanks.
Same here. Never a doubt.
Does it even matter in the South where extreme slippery conditions(ice/snow/slush) are quite rare?
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
On the front for me, thanks.
Same here. Never a doubt.
Does it even matter in the South where extreme slippery conditions(ice/snow/slush) are quite rare?
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Eric the car guy is telling people to put new tires on front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLGFAZ7EFh4
Everything i've read from tire vendors has said to put them on the back?
He makes an interesting case. That being said he misses a major point. In really slippery conditions better tires on front you lose stability of back and get twitching at speed and also hard braking the front end stops while backend can swing around. His tests are at low speed which is not a realistic picture.
The fronts can also lock and send you right off the road with no steering while you madly twist the wheel left and right with no result. When ABS unlocks a wheel it doesn't do much for stopping distance.
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Eric the car guy is telling people to put new tires on front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLGFAZ7EFh4
Everything i've read from tire vendors has said to put them on the back?
He makes an interesting case. That being said he misses a major point. In really slippery conditions better tires on front you lose stability of back and get twitching at speed and also hard braking the front end stops while backend can swing around. His tests are at low speed which is not a realistic picture.
The fronts can also lock and send you right off the road with no steering while you madly twist the wheel left and right with no result. When ABS unlocks a wheel it doesn't do much for stopping distance.
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Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I think of it this way...if you were taking part in a bicycle race and could only have one set of brakes for some reason, would you put them on the front or rear wheel?
Well, on the back, of course...you know that you're going to flip over if you're riding fast, brake the front wheel, and that rear end has to come swinging around somehow.
Off road I did use rear brake more. I have locked the front tire and not had issues--I only worry about side traction, where the tire starts plowing. But the worst spills I took was when the rear tire locked and the bike slid out from under me.
On my road bike I can easily live without the rear brake, it doesn't do much of anything. All the braking force is up front, once the weight shifts there.
If you are going at speed on a road bike and hit just the front brake hard, you are hosed. An experienced learns to hit the rear hard and modulate the front to avoid flipping in an emergency, or they learn to stop riding.
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
michelin has a firm recommendation on their web site with a video of cars with bad tires on front then back.
wet and dry.
I can't remember what Michelin says tho, maybe front
wet and dry.
I can't remember what Michelin says tho, maybe front
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
How fast did you ride?
Did you do hills?
What type of bike(s) were you riding?
I guess this is much more of a problem with road bikes because you lean so far forward and also lean on the drop bars. Used to ride with guys who used the aero bars where they were leaning forward on their elbows, those things scared the crud out of me. One guy I rode with flipped because his aero bars snapped under the load and he broke something, can't remember if it was a collarbone or shoulder blade. I got to drive him to the ER because I missed the ride and was in the office when the call for help came in.
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
How fast did you ride?
Did you do hills?
What type of bike(s) were you riding?
I guess this is much more of a problem with road bikes because you lean so far forward and also lean on the drop bars. Used to ride with guys who used the aero bars where they were leaning forward on their elbows, those things scared the crud out of me. One guy I rode with flipped because his aero bars snapped under the load and he broke something, can't remember if it was a collarbone or shoulder blade. I got to drive him to the ER because I missed the ride and was in the office when the call for help came in.
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With FWD car the front tires will wear a bit faster than the rear tires, so you have to compensate this with tire rotation.
So, this is how I do it.
1) You buy a set of four new tires. All tires have equal thread depth, so you have an ideal situation.
2) At 10,000 miles the front tires have a bit more wear than the rear tires, so you do a tire rotation. Front tires to back, back tires to front. After the rotation you have better tires at front, but the thread depth difference will be so small, that it doesn't matter much.
3) At 15,000 miles the front and rear tires will have equal thread depth, so you have the ideal situation again.
4) At 20,000 miles the front tires have a bit more wear than the rear tires, so you do the tire rotation again.
You continue with this tire rotation pattern, until all four tires are equally shot. At that point you buy a set of four new tires again and start over. Simple.
So, this is how I do it.
1) You buy a set of four new tires. All tires have equal thread depth, so you have an ideal situation.
2) At 10,000 miles the front tires have a bit more wear than the rear tires, so you do a tire rotation. Front tires to back, back tires to front. After the rotation you have better tires at front, but the thread depth difference will be so small, that it doesn't matter much.
3) At 15,000 miles the front and rear tires will have equal thread depth, so you have the ideal situation again.
4) At 20,000 miles the front tires have a bit more wear than the rear tires, so you do the tire rotation again.
You continue with this tire rotation pattern, until all four tires are equally shot. At that point you buy a set of four new tires again and start over. Simple.
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
How fast did you ride?
No idea, no speedometer.
Quote:
Did you do hills?
Yes. Never anything like mountains, but a few 6-7% grades.
Quote:
What type of bike(s) were you riding?
24" and 26" road and hybrid bikes.
Quote:
I guess this is much more of a problem with road bikes because you lean so far forward and also lean on the drop bars. Used to ride with guys who used the aero bars where they were leaning forward on their elbows, those things scared the crud out of me. One guy I rode with flipped because his aero bars snapped under the load and he broke something, can't remember if it was a collarbone or shoulder blade. I got to drive him to the ER because I missed the ride and was in the office when the call for help came in.
Never used aero bars...I wasn't a racer, just a guy getting around on a bicycle.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I admit its been a while since I rode a bicycle, but never in my life have I had any problem using only the front brake...the contrary: I rarely used the REAR brake.
How fast did you ride?
No idea, no speedometer.
Quote:
Did you do hills?
Yes. Never anything like mountains, but a few 6-7% grades.
Quote:
What type of bike(s) were you riding?
24" and 26" road and hybrid bikes.
Quote:
I guess this is much more of a problem with road bikes because you lean so far forward and also lean on the drop bars. Used to ride with guys who used the aero bars where they were leaning forward on their elbows, those things scared the crud out of me. One guy I rode with flipped because his aero bars snapped under the load and he broke something, can't remember if it was a collarbone or shoulder blade. I got to drive him to the ER because I missed the ride and was in the office when the call for help came in.
Never used aero bars...I wasn't a racer, just a guy getting around on a bicycle.
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