New S&W wheelgun timing issues

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Having retired 2-1/2 years ago from 45 years in the metal working trades, I can look through a bit larger window and see why a lot of this is happening. Modern computer controlled CNC machining centers can become a 2 edged sword in a lot of today's modern manufacturing. Manual machines require a skilled operator to cut to close dimensional tolerances. But they are slow, expensive to operate, and not efficient enough in today's manufacturing world. With CNC it's all much more automatic. As a result many CNC machining centers are set up by skilled workers, (set up men), and initial parts are, "bought off" by an inspector.

After that they are manned by "operators" who basically have enough skill to keep the machine running, (load raw material and unload finished parts), and apply some dimensional checks with "go / no go" type gauges. They cannot diagnose and adjust for changes brought on by tool wear, (offset changes), set and replace tooling, or perform some of the more critical checks. These more deliberate checks are often referred to as "batch checks" that are performed by inspectors in another department. Because these machines operate at such a fast pace from part to part, often as a result you have conditions pop up where many out of tolerance parts are run. Some are caught in Q.C., but many are not because they cannot 100% check every part they produce. It would become cost prohibitive.

The end result with this process is overall you get much more dimensionally consistent parts. However when things start getting out of whack, several bad parts can be run before it is noticed and corrected. Then it all has to be traced back to the last good checked part. This "weeding out process" is almost never 100% effective. What then happens, is you end up with bad product that reaches the consumer. Many manufacturers do not have inspection departments, people, or processes in place that can keep up with this increased production. They are more willing to spend money on machinery that offers increased production, than on more scrutinized inspection machinery and people, because that's where they see the biggest return. We as the consumer are most always the one's who are on the receiving end of these issues. And purchase products that have to be sent back and corrected.

This is not only related to the gun industry either. I just read that Kia / Hyundai is going to recall 1.3 MILLION vehicles because of bad engines, that did not have properly cleaned engine blocks and crankshafts. This created a condition which left metal chips created during the manufacturing process, in crankshaft oil galleys, clogging them so insufficient oil amounts reached critical bearings. The result is engines that are self destructing left and right. Lot's of parts manufactured to correct tolerances. But they were never properly cleaned before assembly. Again, manufacturing outpaced everything else that needed more attention than it received. The end result is a multi million dollar disaster.
 
This condition can be magnified much greater by robotics that feed raw material into these machines, and remove finished parts. Thus allowing a manufacturing condition known as running "lights out". This type of process relies on a probe placed into the spindle of the machine itself. Thus allowing the machine to self check the parts it's making. If something checks bad, the machine automatically shuts down until the problem can be corrected.

As always, complete automatic operation is not without it's risks. If a tool should prematurely fail, everything else run behind it will crash. This can damage the fixtures, as well as the machine itself. Where as an attentive operator could have immediately stopped the machine before anything happened. Large scale manufacturers are willing to take that gamble, because of the increased production it offers. Million dollar plus CNC machining centers only make money when they are cutting material. So companies look for any way possible to extend that time.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Having retired 2-1/2 years ago from 45 years in the metal working trades, I can look through a bit larger window and see why a lot of this is happening. Modern computer controlled CNC machining centers can become a 2 edged sword in a lot of today's modern manufacturing. Manual machines require a skilled operator to cut to close dimensional tolerances. But they are slow, expensive to operate, and not efficient enough in today's manufacturing world. With CNC it's all much more automatic. As a result many CNC machining centers are set up by skilled workers, (set up men), and initial parts are, "bought off" by an inspector.

After that they are manned by "operators" who basically have enough skill to keep the machine running, (load raw material and unload finished parts), and apply some dimensional checks with "go / no go" type gauges. They cannot diagnose and adjust for changes brought on by tool wear, (offset changes), set and replace tooling, or perform some of the more critical checks. These more deliberate checks are often referred to as "batch checks" that are performed by inspectors in another department. Because these machines operate at such a fast pace from part to part, often as a result you have conditions pop up where many out of tolerance parts are run. Some are caught in Q.C., but many are not because they cannot 100% check every part they produce. It would become cost prohibitive.

The end result with this process is overall you get much more dimensionally consistent parts. However when things start getting out of whack, several bad parts can be run before it is noticed and corrected. Then it all has to be traced back to the last good checked part. This "weeding out process" is almost never 100% effective. What then happens, is you end up with bad product that reaches the consumer. Many manufacturers do not have inspection departments, people, or processes in place that can keep up with this increased production. They are more willing to spend money on machinery that offers increased production, than on more scrutinized inspection machinery and people, because that's where they see the biggest return. We as the consumer are most always the one's who are on the receiving end of these issues. And purchase products that have to be sent back and corrected.

This is not only related to the gun industry either. I just read that Kia / Hyundai is going to recall 1.3 MILLION vehicles because of bad engines, that did not have properly cleaned engine blocks and crankshafts. This created a condition which left metal chips created during the manufacturing process, in crankshaft oil galleys, clogging them so insufficient oil amounts reached critical bearings. The result is engines that are self destructing left and right. Lot's of parts manufactured to correct tolerances. But they were never properly cleaned before assembly. Again, manufacturing outpaced everything else that needed more attention than it received. The end result is a multi million dollar disaster.


Great info, thank you for the post.
I guess this answers the question of how long to leave in the factory fill when you buy a new car!
 
Plain Jane S&W Model 10 with four or six inch barrel made before 1985. Purchased a Model 10 from a dealer in southeast Missouri for $365 which I saw on Guns International. Thought the pictures of the gun looked like it was in very good condition. Turns out the gun came out of a collection that was being sold due to owners medical problems. FFL who received the gun brought it out and said it had never been fired. The gun didn't have a scratch, no turn line and numbers matched. Gun was made in 1980 and action is very smooth. Still, the gun's build quality is not as good as the S&W Model 18 I have owned for fifty years. Times change and most of the change hasn't been for the better. That includes me.
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It came back today. Took 35 days from when I sent it until I got it back. All the chambers lock up before full cock or the hammer dropping in DA mode. However, some still lock up a bit sooner than others. It is safe now, but not very indicative of the quality one would expect on a firearm at that price point.
 
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