Network switch in attic

[Donald]

I am up in the air about whether it's a good idea to put a network switch in the attic. I have about six CAT6 cables coming into the attic area and connect to a patch panel and the a bundle of wires goes to a network switch in first floor. All of the CAT6 cables supply POE, some need 50 watts.

The patch panel is CAT5E rated not CAT6 and I am having trouble with bad connections.

One idea is to install a network switch in the attic that supplies POE. A good Unifi network switch is $200 but an industrial one that will handle a higher attic temp is $500. And more $$$ for a UPS for this attic switch. And if I go with $200 switch I will need at least one, maybe two POE injectord to get 50 watts as the $200 switch can supply POE but not 50 watts.

Or redo the patch panel and keep switches on first floor.

Or put a max/min thermometer in attic this summer and see how hot it really gets. Leave wiring as is for now.

The $500 industrial switch would be nice but hate to spend that kind of money on a switch.

 

[RooflessVW]

What do you gain by having the switch in the attic?

 

[opus1]

I'd definitely be concerned about the weather swings (both hot and cold) in the attic and the effect on the equipment.

 

[CarLuver]

i have had my router, modem and a switch in my attic for years. temps in my area swing from 20 to 90 degrees outside over the year. never had a problem with the equipment . i have replaced stuff throughout the years, but it was because of new tech came out.

i put mine there because its at the center of the house. also, mine is an older house i had to add the cat wiring and teminating it up there was easier

 

[Rand]

What kind of issues are you having with the patch panel?

are they poe related? not sure an older cat 5e would do ok with 50watt going through it.

At the least I'd put a thermometer up there and check. my "attic" room/office easily will hit 105f+ without window air conditioner..
and my knee walls exceed 130f on a 90f day with sunny weather.

I'm about to move my whole setup to the basement and possibly run ethernet via MOCA to an upstairs switch.
but its alot of wiring because I need to change the setup for 2 unifi ap's

Other option is trying to pull ethernet using the phone cable I'll never use.(vs moca)

I have no doubt I could pull bulk cable but I dont have a crimper good enough.
once I buy all the tools might be easier to use existing coax to get upstairs ethernet.

I have an ideal setup with power and coax coming in one corner that I could move the modem and udm pro to that corner.

right now I have udm pro, 2 aps, modem etc upstairs.

Sometimes the poor 6k btu window ac wont keep up but it is only 430watt unit.

Was also considering passing on all that and buying one of those new midea 8k btu U-shaped window inverter air conditioners

 

[Lubener]

I wouldn't put any electronic device in an attic. Most attics get way too hot and commonly reach 120 degrees in the summer.

 

[OVERKILL]

I am up in the air about whether it's a good idea to put a network switch in the attic. I have about six CAT6 cables coming into the attic area and connect to a patch panel and the a bundle of wires goes to a network switch in first floor. All of the CAT6 cables supply POE, some need 50 watts.

The patch panel is CAT5E rated not CAT6 and I am having trouble with bad connections.

One idea is to install a network switch in the attic that supplies POE. A good Unifi network switch is $200 but an industrial one that will handle a higher attic temp is $500. And more $$$ for a UPS for this attic switch. And if I go with $200 switch I will need at least one, maybe two POE injectord to get 50 watts as the $200 switch can supply POE but not 50 watts.

Or redo the patch panel and keep switches on first floor.

Or put a max/min thermometer in attic this summer and see how hot it really gets. Leave wiring as is for now.

The $500 industrial switch would be nice but hate to spend that kind of money on a switch.

Just some clarification, are you using a CAT5e patch panel where ALL cabling is CAT6 or is the bundle of wire existing the patch CAT5e? Regardless, CAT5e should be sufficient here in most instances even when used with the wrong cable, assuming the equipment is of decent quality. While it is certainly "best practice" to use all CAT6 rated junctions typically you can get away with mixing and matching, even though I'm not advocating doing so.

In the past, prior to rewires in spaces I've taken over, I've had runs of CAT6 go a distance, hit a CAT5e patch, jump onto some existing CAT5e cabling and then land on a PoE AP and I've TYPICALLY not seen issues with dropped packets or power problems with the devices. I assume these runs are significantly longer than the ones you are dealing with.

A decent managed switch and AP should tell you as to the type of issue you are experiencing, whether it's packet loss, insufficient power...etc.

 

[Donald]

So I will be moving the modem and main switch from a lounge area to a area in the basement as the temp is more consistent. The lounge has people who may power off something or mess with it and is unheated. The basement is not heated but will moderate the temps being a basement. So I need to set up new wiring from basement to attic using a bundle of wires or put a switch in attic and run a single CAT6 cable. The CAT6 wires leaving the attic and run along telephone poles. I may be starting to exceed the 100m limit for wiring if I setup new patch panels to go to the basement. Current patch panels are punch style which I am not fond of. The current patch panel has a few wires that do not pass the test using my Klein network tester. A switch in the attic allows me to have almost the full 100m of CAT6 cable running along telephone poles.

The Unifi industrial switch is rated to 140F. Seems electronic devices rated "industrial" can be placed in an area with a wider temp swing than a regular switch.

The largest power draw is a single CAT6 cable feeding a POE powered switch mounted on a telephone pole with 4 APs connected to it. One of the APs is 100m from the pole mounted switch.

 

[OVERKILL]

So I will be moving the modem and main switch from a lounge area to a area in the basement as the temp is more consistent. The lounge has people who may power off something or mess with it and is unheated. The basement is not heated but will moderate the temps being a basement. So I need to set up new wiring from basement to attic using a bundle of wires or put a switch in attic and run a single CAT6 cable. The CAT6 wires leaving the attic and run along telephone poles. I may be starting to exceed the 100m limit for wiring if I setup new patch panels to go to the basement. Current patch panels are punch style which I am not fond of. The current patch panel has a few wires that do not pass the test using my Klein network tester. A switch in the attic allows me to have almost the full 100m of CAT6 cable running along telephone poles.

The Unifi industrial switch is rated to 140F. Seems electronic devices rated "industrial" can be placed in an area with a wider temp swing than a regular switch.

The largest power draw is a single CAT6 cable feeding a POE powered switch mounted on a telephone pole with 4 APs connected to it. One of the APs is 100m from the pole mounted switch.

That is one goofy sounding setup! Why no home runs to the AP's to a proper AC-fed PoE switch?

I've used a pile of industrial-rated switches, I have several at a storage farm where the units aren't temp regulated and the switches are in the attic (surveillance) and see temps ranging from -30C to easily +50C, if not higher. They do indeed hold up in these conditions.

IMHO, that whole network needs a re-think, it sounds very cobbled together and ad-hoc but I assume this isn't in the budget.

 

[Donald]

I'd definitely be concerned about the weather swings (both hot and cold) in the attic and the effect on the equipment.

I cannot say about hot attic temps but all the WIFI hardware has run through CT winters and buildings are unheated. In the winter we have several Unifi cameras recording on motion.

 

[Donald]

That is one goofy sounding setup! Why no home runs to the AP's to a proper AC-fed PoE switch?

I've used a pile of industrial-rated switches, I have several at a storage farm where the units aren't temp regulated and the switches are in the attic (surveillance) and see temps ranging from -30C to easily +50C, if not higher. They do indeed hold up in these conditions.

IMHO, that whole network needs a re-think, it sounds very cobbled together and ad-hoc but I assume this isn't in the budget.

All the access points are on telephone poles some more than 100m from one of my two main switches. Those switches are in buildings and the only places I can pull power from. I would prefer not to have a bundle of CAT6 cable running along telephone poles and feel its better to have a Unifi outdoor switch mounted on a telephone pole. I am careful not to drawn more POE power than the switch or POE injector can handle.

Suggestions/comments welcome.

Yes my budget is only so much for hardware/cable per year. I have a full time day job so this work is after work or weekends.

 

[Donald]

Overkill - would appreciate some ideas? Feel free to PM me so as not to drag all the details into my post.

 

[OVERKILL]

All the access points are on telephone poles some more than 100m from one of my two main switches. Those switches are in buildings and the only places I can pull power from. I would prefer not to have a bundle of CAT6 cable running along telephone poles and feel its better to have a Unifi outdoor switch mounted on a telephone pole. I am careful not to drawn more POE power than the switch or POE injector can handle.

Suggestions/comments welcome.

Yes my budget is only so much for hardware/cable per year. I have a full time day job so this work is after work or weekends.

Yes, I knew this was a part-time project for you, it's a church right? Hence my remark about the budget.

When I did a resort and was in a similar boat, trying to cover a large area, I used coaxial-fed AP's (PoC) which use what's essentially a cable modem and power over that RG6 cable. However, these AP's are also able to use streetlight power, wide-range AC, direct DC...etc. So you could for example:
- fibre feed them with an SFP and have a single AC transformer of sufficient size to power them, just running the cable along with the fibre.
- fibre feed them and use streetlight power, so the only thing you are running is fibre, which eliminates the home run distance issue

The PoC AP's were expensive, but the distance it was capable of was 500m? That's why it was used, and also provided for the simplest topology, as one only had to run outdoor rated RG6 to the units. At the time, Cisco included what was essentially a PoC power injector and bridge that you could locate as far as you wanted from the AP's, one for each unit, that were fed ethernet, but the newer setup appears to use true DOCSIS, so that's probably not something you'd want to get into and Cisco stuff is a billion times more expensive than Ubiquiti.

Some details on the different methods of powering outdoor Cisco AP's can be found here:

Cisco Aironet 1570 Series Outdoor Access Point Hardware Installation Guide - Installing Other Components [Cisco Aironet 1570 Series]

Installing Other Components

www.cisco.com

Of course I guess another option would be to find another way to power that switch (not PoE) so that you don't have that single point of high draw. Do these telephone poles have any form of power on them, like a street light?

 

[coder]

Just my anecdotal 2 cents.. I notice I tend to have more trouble with network equipment in the summer.
(All my gear is set up in my living space, so the temp swings are not extreme, although I do not have AC in that room)
I actually installed a fan to blow air on the gear and reliability improved a lot. Fan cooling may be an option.
An attic will get a lot hotter, so maybe it is not such a great location on that count.

 

[PandaBear]

It will likely overheat. Most electronics are designed for up to 40C ambient temperature and internal temperature should not exceed 60C. DDR operating temp is tested to up to 70C and after that expected to fail (crash).

I would definitely put it somewhere a human can be comfortable, even if it means using 2 switches instead of 1 to keep cable length within spec (100M or 300ft).

 

[eljefino]

Can you build an inverted coffin in the attic with insulation on top of it so the gear can be in what's basically an extension of the next-lower level? Put a little vent in the ceiling that goes into your box.

 

[Donald]

Yes, I knew this was a part-time project for you, it's a church right? Hence my remark about the budget.

When I did a resort and was in a similar boat, trying to cover a large area, I used coaxial-fed AP's (PoC) which use what's essentially a cable modem and power over that RG6 cable. However, these AP's are also able to use streetlight power, wide-range AC, direct DC...etc. So you could for example:
- fibre feed them with an SFP and have a single AC transformer of sufficient size to power them, just running the cable along with the fibre.
- fibre feed them and use streetlight power, so the only thing you are running is fibre, which eliminates the home run distance issue

The PoC AP's were expensive, but the distance it was capable of was 500m? That's why it was used, and also provided for the simplest topology, as one only had to run outdoor rated RG6 to the units. At the time, Cisco included what was essentially a PoC power injector and bridge that you could locate as far as you wanted from the AP's, one for each unit, that were fed ethernet, but the newer setup appears to use true DOCSIS, so that's probably not something you'd want to get into and Cisco stuff is a billion times more expensive than Ubiquiti.

Some details on the different methods of powering outdoor Cisco AP's can be found here:

Cisco Aironet 1570 Series Outdoor Access Point Hardware Installation Guide - Installing Other Components [Cisco Aironet 1570 Series]

Installing Other Components

www.cisco.com

Of course I guess another option would be to find another way to power that switch (not PoE) so that you don't have that single point of high draw. Do these telephone poles have any form of power on them, like a street light?

The telephone poles have 220V on them but if I wanted to pull AC power I would need a meter on the pole with a circuit breaker box and would be charged a monthly meter fee.

What about running DC power on DC power cable?

The farthest I have to go it about 200m.

Is there a problem with having a Unifi outdoor switch on a pole 100m from the main switch that uses about 50 watts of POE?

 

[OVERKILL]

The telephone poles have 220V on them but if I wanted to pull AC power I would need a meter on the pole with a circuit breaker box and would be charged a monthly meter fee.

What about running DC power on DC power cable?

The farthest I have to go it about 200m.

Is there a problem with having a Unifi outdoor switch on a pole 100m from the main switch that uses about 50 watts of POE?

Yes, DC should work (was one of the options listed by Cisco).

My concern is that you are powering a switch over PoE at a pretty good distance, which is then in turn trying to power multiple AP's over PoE, that's a huge draw when you consider you are doing it over 23 or even 24 gauge wire.

If that switch itself was powered directly (not over PoE) I wouldn't have the same level of concern, but this is a pretty taxing setup.

Startech makes some industrial grade power injectors that are designed to be DC-fed:

Industrial Gigabit PoE/PoE+ Injector 30W - Ethernet Extenders | Networking IO Products | StarTech.com

Industrial Gigabit Ethernet PoE Injector 30W 802.3at PoE+ Midspan 48V-56VDC Power Over Ethernet Injector Adapter -40C to +75C

www.startech.com

Industrial Gigabit Ethernet PoE Injector
- 30W 802.3at PoE+ Midspan 48V-56VDC DIN Rail Power Over Ethernet Injector Adapter -
- -40C to +75C
- Cameras/Sensors/WiFi Access Points

One of those for each AP fed from a solid DC feed and you'll eliminate the load on that switch.

 

[mk378]

If it is Ubiquiti 24 volt power, it really isn't designed for that level of power or that length of cable. Since it is 24 volts vs. 48 volts, you have twice the amperage per watt to begin with. And it is more sensitive to resistance losses in the cable.

I would run a 24 volt power cable to the switch on the pole.

 

[Donald]

If it is Ubiquiti 24 volt power, it really isn't designed for that level of power or that length of cable. Since it is 24 volts vs. 48 volts, you have twice the amperage per watt to begin with. And it is more sensitive to resistance losses in the cable.

I would run a 24 volt power cable to the switch on the pole.

I power everything with 57 volts not 24.