Need some amunition for argument that 0W20 is

[Capa]

Originally Posted By: buster
The last 10 years have proven there are no wear issues at all in engines that call for 20 grade oils. Period. In fact, engines are lasting longer than they ever have and this has all coincided with a trend in lower viscosity oils.


+2

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Last summer we had at least 20 days over 100F and countless days 95-100 and the M1 0-20 I use in my Duratech 4s performed very well, even with 10K OCIs. Also 20wt oils will reduce oil temps a tab compared to 40wt oils in the same climate. Also M1 0-20 has an outstanding base stock and is more than capable of holding up in a Toyota in Charlotte.

I think so too, but I have no oil temp gauge in any of my cars to verify that. I wonder how much cooler the xW20 is compare with xW40.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm pretty sure the Toyota engineers took that into consideration, as did Ford and Honda engineers. Google some of the tests Ford put their engines through that call for 20 grade oil and see. I bet Toyota and Honda did some testing too, plenty. JMO

Car companies test their vehicles in the hot summer heat in Death Valley. Google "Car Testing Death Valley"

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-09-04-autos-test_N.htm

Foster, an engineer from South Korean automaker Kia said: "Death Valley is the mecca for car testers,"

As soon as they hit the road, it was clear the Kia team wasn't alone. In summer, about the only traffic around the desolate landscape here are black-clad manufacturers' prototypes being tested in hot weather. The Kia engineers didn't have much trouble spotting teams from Hyundai, General Motors, Volkswagen, even a heavy-duty tractor-trailer. Only one car, escorted by a Subaru, remained a mystery.
...
That's the secret of Death Valley, Foster says. It's not just the heat: It's the hills. Engineers pay careful attention to temperatures of transmission fluid and engine oil all the way up.

Below is a video of BMW tested their vehicles at Death Valley.

 

[tig1]

Well I used M1 5-20 in the late 70s in engines calling for 10-40. No problems except a little more oil useage.

 

[aquariuscsm]

It`s a give and take. Thin oils = fuel economy,thick oils = more protection.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
It`s a give and take. Thin oils = fuel economy,thick oils = more protection.


Except that's not really true. I couldn't care less about fuel economy WRT oil choice. I'm using a thinner oil because I believe it protects better for my situation (daily driving a giant wagon).

How would my engine be better-protected by a thicker oil?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Cool. Would never have thought that there would be that much extra stress at the bearings. Interesting.


ARCO's right. Heck, back in the late 1990s, the drivetrain shock was one of the reasons a lot of the Japanese manual sports cars were no longer imported. The OBD of the time couldn't react to the hiccups quickly enough, and it was making emissions testing very difficult to pass, of all things.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Except that's not really true.


Of course it`s true. Use a 0W2 in a car that`s designed for a 40 or 50 weight (Ford GT,Nissan GTR,etc),drive it like it`s meant to be driven,and see how long the engine lasts.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Except that's not really true.

Of course its true in some vehicles, you are painting with a broad brush again.
Why when Ford back spec'd the 5.4 2v to 5w20 why did they put a disclaimer in the spec sheet. IIRC It was if the vehicle reaches 8,000 gross pounds 5w30 must be used.
If what you say is true then why would they feel the need to do that.

Why did they not back spec all models?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: JOD
Except that's not really true.


Of course it`s true. Use a 0W2 in a car that`s designed for a 40 or 50 weight (Ford GT,Nissan GTR,etc),drive it like it`s meant to be driven,and see how long the engine lasts.


Nice goalpost shift... There's a difference between protection and suitability...

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: teddyboy
He is arguing that I should really be running M1 0W40 in the wife's 07 Camry (which calls for 5W20 or 0W20) because if she is stuck in traffic on a hot Charlotte day that the 0W20 won't stand up to the heat.


I use 5w 20 and I drive from NY to Charleston SC a few times a year only stopping to gas and potty. At least 2 trips in the summer with a car top carrier and 5-6 people in the car... No problems. My family have a few Fords in SC that use 5w 20... No problems...

 

[johnachak]

.. [/quote] Shock loading of plain bearings puts a higher demand on "adequate" viscosity than a fluid coupled AT would. Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps. [/quote]

That doesn't make sense unless you are popping the clutch at 5 grand. gradually letting off the clutch is very similar to an automatic and since automatics have lockup converters, normal on / off throttle has almost the same impact.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: johnachak

..
Quote:
Shock loading of plain bearings puts a higher demand on "adequate" viscosity than a fluid coupled AT would. Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps.


That doesn't make sense unless you are popping the clutch at 5 grand. gradually letting off the clutch is very similar to an automatic and since automatics have lockup converters, normal on / off throttle has almost the same impact.


Even then, having done 5 and 6K clutch dumps on a tire, I've never hurt an engine... And that was with M1 5w30 in the sump in a stock shortblocked 302 making ~100HP more than stock.

I broke other things however.... like a yoke, transmission....etc. LOL!

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Except that's not really true.

Of course its true in some vehicles, you are painting with a broad again




I'm not painting with a broad brush, you're putting words in my mouth, or inferring things I'm not implying. I never said thinner oils are "always better l. What I said is that there isn't an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection, because there isn't! Whether or not an oil is suitable for an application is a completely different matter. I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm suggesting that 20W oils are suitable for all applications? I'm not; but to to suggest there's an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection simply is incorrect, and pretty much the definition of painting with a broad brush.

 

[ffracer]

Originally Posted By: JOD


As far as "compromised" WRT viscosity, sure--there are always compromises. But the oil in almost all cars which are driven in normal duty cycles spends more time being too thick, not too thin. The mountains of data on average trip times support this fact. And cars are pretty tolerant. For Americans not tracking their cars or engaged in felony speeding, the thinnest oil spec'd is generally the best compromise.


This whole discussion is about the compromise, rather than one size fits all.

You don't have to go "felony" speeding to drive a car spirtedly on country road. Spare me the lecture on driving laws. Not everyone drives a rolling sofa Camry, nor does it have to be run at 120 mph to test the engine. We're talking revving and hard loading on the motor. Something you can do with a truck or a small car or getting a smaller engine instead of bigger one. Actually using it.

OVERKILL makes a great point. I guarantee you that 0W-20 won't work in some BMWs, because low viscosity oil won't pump the lifters, especially in cornering. Mobil 1 5W-30 wasn't enough in my M3, needed 0W-40. Which is what BMW specs (40 wt) for this car. there are other examples for other mfgs.

Auto racing oils are not relevant for legal driven road cars, because they are designed for sustained high rpms/load for 50-1000 miles, ignore any emissions requirements, have a short usage cycle, aren't meant for varying temperature and repeated start ups.

 

[crazyoildude]

overkill those engines dont need a reason to have bearing damage

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
overkill those engines dont need a reason to have bearing damage


ROFLCOPTER!!!!!!

OK, lets pretend we are speaking of one that had the bearing recall done, LOL!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: cp3

..
Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps.

If you've got high oil pressure in an engine the operational viscosity of the oil must also be high.

The difference in flow between a 2.7cP and a 3.5cP oil is negliable; they both will have viscosity characteristics of kerosene to the naked eye.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: cp3

..
Visc is more important than "high" oil pressure. Clap your hands as hard as you can in air (HTHSv 2.7) and next, underwater (HTHSv 3.5) tell me in which hurts the most after 20 hard claps.

If you've got high oil pressure in an engine the operational viscosity of the oil must also be high.

The difference in flow between a 2.7cP and a 3.5cP oil is negliable; they both will have viscosity characteristics of kerosene to the naked eye.


Not necessarily true. One could simply be running a retardedly high volume oil pump. See Ford Modular engine for an example of this.

"Oh hai, we are going to run 5w20? Let us use a nutty gyrator oil pump that displaces an obscene amount of oil!".

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
That being said, the 0w-20 oil is MORE than adequate in the use of an automobile engine.


I challenge you to buy an E46 M3, put 0w20 in it, and then take it lapping. If you have rod bearings left after that event, I'll buy you several beers

I'd take that bet.
We have one member (PM'd me) who is running the Toyota 0W-20 in his street driven M3 and is able to maintain adequate oil pressure (just). He loves the increased repsonsive of the engine.
And if I had a E46 M3 I'd consider running some ester based 0W-20 oils in it at the track.
Keep in mind that the FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 was the spec' oil in the Porsche Cup Series of a few years ago.
Point is, it's harder than you think to run an oil thin enough to actually induce a bearing wiping condition.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Why when Ford back spec'd the 5.4 2v to 5w20 why did they put a disclaimer in the spec sheet. IIRC It was if the vehicle reaches 8,000 gross pounds 5w30 must be used.
If what you say is true then why would they feel the need to do that.

Why did they not back spec all models?


I asked this question that you choose to avoid.