Need some amunition for argument that 0W20 is

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Originally Posted By: Trav
Why when Ford back spec'd the 5.4 2v to 5w20 why did they put a disclaimer in the spec sheet. IIRC It was if the vehicle reaches 8,000 gross pounds 5w30 must be used. If what you say is true then why would they feel the need to do that. Why did they not back spec all models?

The same question could be posed in a different way--why are the 6.2L V-8 and 6.8L V-10 engines spec'ed for 5W-20 if it is supposedly so inadequate for towing? This grade is specified for the F-250, F-350, F-450, and F-550 and ALL of these will exceed 8,000 pounds (in fact 19,000 through 26,000 pounds) and NONE of them have any other oil specified than 5W-20.

We can sit here and beat on 5W-20 all day long, but there are simply too many of these trucks pulling heavy loads running this oil grade with no problems to make statements like the ones suggested in this thread against 5W-20.

2012 F-250 through F-550 Owner's Manual (See Page 376)
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Quote:
What I said is that there isn't an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection, because there isn't!


Go to page 16 of this presentation. Chevron clearly shows an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engine...ril_20_2010.pdf

Ed


The slide you referenced is for diesel engines. Do I also need to put in the qualifier that we're talking about gasoline engines? This is getting a bit ridiculous....
 
Ammunition for an argument for using 40 weight...none.
Ammunition against an argument for using 40 weight...

The many people with engineering degrees who built the car say differently, and the multi-million dollar company that repairs and warranties the car agrees with them.
 
Among the various attempts at being definitive within an 'it all depends' talk and conversation(with JOD and Trav at both ends of the same candle), OVERK1LL nailed it in about 4 posts.

0w-20 is fine for your Camry, your app, your conditions, etc etc and the guy is being a whimp, where as a 40 is probably overkill.

Thus, full circle pwnage.

2 questions:

What stress does driving at 120 MPH (for however long before refueling or slowing down after some defined 'meaningful' period of time) do to oil and it's ability to transfer heat and protect?

Is it more stressful, OTOH, on the oil in other specific ways to perform frequent hard pulls at WOT and near red-line in a tournament style auto-crossing event(again defined by a meaningful amount of laps for comparison purposes)?

The same 'racing' style oil may be used in such scenarios, where 'most' engines 'may' have more wear in the auto crossing event, at least on a per mile basis??? Let's define more the demands of specific types of services. I'd like to do that anyway because I don't know really.

PS: Nice discussion, enjoyed reading late at night.
 
Guys, I am not an engineer nor is this scientific analysis. I will state a fact though. I have seen Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors run hundreds of thousands of miles on 5w-30 and 5w-20 oil. Some agencies said the 5w-30 was too thin, then they said the 5w-20 was suicide when the PI engines came out. My agency ran whatever the manufacturer called for as far as grade in the cheapest bulk dino oil they could get with STP, Fram, or whatever filter the quick lube place of choice (rotated through a local roster) had in stock on their entire fleet of CVPIs. I never saw an engine fail. I saw a few transmissions go. This whole arguement is overblown. Thin oil is fine, thick oil is fine (all within reason). Change it regularly and it is all good.
 
Oh yeah....and those cars got beat on every day...120 MPH? Yes. Stop and go? Yes. Lots of idling? Yes. Louisiana heat? Yes.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
[/quote]

I'm not painting with a broad brush, you're putting words in my mouth, or inferring things I'm not implying. I never said thinner oils are "always better l. What I said is that there isn't an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection, because there isn't! Whether or not an oil is suitable for an application is a completely different matter. I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm suggesting that 20W oils are suitable for all applications? I'm not; but to to suggest there's an inverse relationship between fuel economy and protection simply is incorrect, and pretty much the definition of painting with a broad brush.



This is straight from Ford:
*a 5W-20 viscosity oil, which Ford desired for its fuel economy benefits*.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Again why were all models not included and some that are have a proviso? Could it be it just doesn't perform well in all engines?


Sure it could be.

I still don't see the point of the discussion though. I think one can make a valid argument that a heavier oil has the capability of providing more protection. Just as bulletproof glass has the capability of providing more protection than regular glass.

Show of hands: who has bulletproof glass in their cars or homes?

Just because one product has a higher level of capability than another product, that doesn't mean that it's the optimal product to use in every case. You could also use 4x4s to build the walls in your house rather than 2x4s. They'll be twice as strong, right?

Will 0W-40 be more appropriate than 0W-20 when driving 120 mph on the autobahn? Most certainly. But I'm not sure why this is relevant to the situation in the original question, which is can 0W-20 handle sitting in traffic in North Carolina?
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
That being said, the 0w-20 oil is MORE than adequate in the use of an automobile engine.


I challenge you to buy an E46 M3, put 0w20 in it, and then take it lapping. If you have rod bearings left after that event, I'll buy you several beers
grin.gif


I'd take that bet.
We have one member (PM'd me) who is running the Toyota 0W-20 in his street driven M3 and is able to maintain adequate oil pressure (just). He loves the increased repsonsive of the engine.
And if I had a E46 M3 I'd consider running some ester based 0W-20 oils in it at the track.
Keep in mind that the FUCHS Titan GT-1 0W-20 was the spec' oil in the Porsche Cup Series of a few years ago.
Point is, it's harder than you think to run an oil thin enough to actually induce a bearing wiping condition.


Oh, I'd imagine it would be fine on the street, that's why I specifically mentioned lapping it, LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Trav
Why when Ford back spec'd the 5.4 2v to 5w20 why did they put a disclaimer in the spec sheet. IIRC It was if the vehicle reaches 8,000 gross pounds 5w30 must be used. If what you say is true then why would they feel the need to do that. Why did they not back spec all models?

The same question could be posed in a different way--why are the 6.2L V-8 and 6.8L V-10 engines spec'ed for 5W-20 if it is supposedly so inadequate for towing? This grade is specified for the F-250, F-350, F-450, and F-550 and ALL of these will exceed 8,000 pounds (in fact 19,000 through 26,000 pounds) and NONE of them have any other oil specified than 5W-20.

We can sit here and beat on 5W-20 all day long, but there are simply too many of these trucks pulling heavy loads running this oil grade with no problems to make statements like the ones suggested in this thread against 5W-20.

2012 F-250 through F-550 Owner's Manual (See Page 376)


1. Sump volume
2. Lubricant temperature control
3. Power density

An engine with a moderate power density and large sump is going to have good lubricant temperature control. If you can keep the lubricant cool, you can run a thinner lubricant. This is also why Ford uses oil coolers.

Ford isn't stupid. In order to get away with running 5w20, they increased oil pump volume, sump size and added oil coolers where necessary to keep oil temperature under control.

Now in that vein, the engines Trav is alluding to were originally designed around 5w30. And that is why that caveat regarding GVWR is mentioned. They obviously lack either enough sump size, pump volume or oil cooling capacity to be adequately protected by 5w20 under all circumstances.

As I said, Ford isn't stupid.
 
For what it's worth, even though my car is the exact opposite of what an '07 Camry is and requires a different spec, I have used the mfr's spec'd oil (5w-30 in my case) and the car runs as good now (340,000 miles) as it did when it was new. Stick with your 20 weight and as long as you keep it changed regularly, you'll be fine. And my car has spent plenty of time in "Charlotte Heat".
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Guys, I am not an engineer nor is this scientific analysis. I will state a fact though. I have seen Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors run hundreds of thousands of miles on 5w-30 and 5w-20 oil. Some agencies said the 5w-30 was too thin, then they said the 5w-20 was suicide when the PI engines came out. My agency ran whatever the manufacturer called for as far as grade in the cheapest bulk dino oil they could get with STP, Fram, or whatever filter the quick lube place of choice (rotated through a local roster) had in stock on their entire fleet of CVPIs. I never saw an engine fail. I saw a few transmissions go. This whole arguement is overblown. Thin oil is fine, thick oil is fine (all within reason). Change it regularly and it is all good.

Oh yeah....and those cars got beat on every day...120 MPH? Yes. Stop and go? Yes. Lots of idling? Yes. Louisiana heat? Yes.


I dont get it guys....see above. Question answered.
 
What about the 2012 Ford F150 ecoboost? Even Ford wont risk that engine on 5w20 even with all the latest and greatest technology.
When its all said and done American driving isn't hard on engines, even Police cars don't have it hard. 120 mph for short burst is nothing, most of their life is stop and go and idling.
German Police cars have a much easier life than the average BMW except for the autobahn prowlers and could also probably get away with lighter oils (AFAIK they still use M1 0w40 bulk).

5w20 probably works okay for many engines but it seems as soon as the engine is subjected to high heat and RPM for extended periods its less than optimal according to many manufacturers.
Subaru goes on and on in their manual about fuel economy but then says in areas of higher heat or loading thicker oil must be use to protect the engine.
I would probably use it up here in the NE if the engine was spec'd for it.

This horse is about beaten to death. The believers will keep believing and keep claiming there is no argument that can be made against 5w20. I believe there is but at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what anyone chooses to run in their engine as long as i don't have to pay for it.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
1. Sump volume
2. Lubricant temperature control
3. Power density

An engine with a moderate power density and large sump is going to have good lubricant temperature control. If you can keep the lubricant cool, you can run a thinner lubricant. This is also why Ford uses oil coolers. Ford isn't stupid. In order to get away with running 5w20, they increased oil pump volume, sump size and added oil coolers where necessary to keep oil temperature under control. Now in that vein, the engines Trav is alluding to were originally designed around 5w30. And that is why that caveat regarding GVWR is mentioned. They obviously lack either enough sump size, pump volume or oil cooling capacity to be adequately protected by 5w20 under all circumstances.

As I said, Ford isn't stupid.

I agree with you, however, unless I am mistaken, the "argument" is that 5W-20 is not sufficient even in engines that were specified for it. Somehow the discussion changed from a vehicle that was specified for 5W-20 to those that were not and that is the reason I posted the information about the 6.2/6.8L engines. I would assume the power density between a 5.4L and 6.2/6.8L is vastly different and yet 5W-20 is still more than adequate for those larger engines pulling more than double the weight noted in the disclaimer for the back specified 2V engines.

Even for the engines that are specified to use 5W-20 (such as the Camry in the example), there is still a stigma that 5W-20 is not good enough and therefore XX-30/40 must be used. In my short time on the board, I see (more or less) X-20 lovers or haters and not very many in between. I am not a 5W-20 lover per se, I am using the designed oil specification for my vehicle, if 5W-30/40 was specified I would use it, but since 5W-20 was, I use it. I guess I question when x-20 WILL be "good enough" to join the ranks of the hallowed xx-30/40 oils and thus will no longer be viewed as a consequence of a regulation change.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
What about the 2012 Ford F150 ecoboost? Even Ford wont risk that engine on 5w20 even with all the latest and greatest technology.
When its all said and done American driving isn't hard on engines, even Police cars don't have it hard. 120 mph for short burst is nothing, most of their life is stop and go and idling.
German Police cars have a much easier life than the average BMW except for the autobahn prowlers and could also probably get away with lighter oils (AFAIK they still use M1 0w40 bulk).

5w20 probably works okay for many engines but it seems as soon as the engine is subjected to high heat and RPM for extended periods its less than optimal according to many manufacturers.
Subaru goes on and on in their manual about fuel economy but then says in areas of higher heat or loading thicker oil must be use to protect the engine.
I would probably use it up here in the NE if the engine was spec'd for it.

This horse is about beaten to death. The believers will keep believing and keep claiming there is no argument that can be made against 5w20. I believe there is but at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what anyone chooses to run in their engine as long as i don't have to pay for it.





Brother, I gotta tell you, police cars have it hard. If they did not, they would not have external fluid coolers of every variety. Plus-I drove them on the job for eight years. I can tell you they get it VERY hard. Yes, 120mph not very often, but a whole lot of hard acceleration (with a 5000 lb car when you consider equipment, etc), extensive idlingin all climatic conditions,etc. I am arguing neither for nor against 5w-20 or 0W-40. I am just saying that typically when a manufacturer recommends a vehicle use a particular type or grade of oil, they know what they are talking about, and for the 4.6L Ford in a CVPI, 5w-20 does just fine. For instance, my LT4 Vette recommended 4718M Mobile one in 5w-30 or 10w-30....for a very good reason I am sure. All of this is application specific stuff. I am offering eight years of observations. I recommend someone show me an oil related failure on a vehicle that recieved appropriate maintenance that was specced for 5w-20 and ran it. All of this other stuff is basically great answers to a non-existant problem. Run what is specced. Service appropriately. Sleep well at night.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
1. Sump volume
2. Lubricant temperature control
3. Power density

An engine with a moderate power density and large sump is going to have good lubricant temperature control. If you can keep the lubricant cool, you can run a thinner lubricant. This is also why Ford uses oil coolers. Ford isn't stupid. In order to get away with running 5w20, they increased oil pump volume, sump size and added oil coolers where necessary to keep oil temperature under control. Now in that vein, the engines Trav is alluding to were originally designed around 5w30. And that is why that caveat regarding GVWR is mentioned. They obviously lack either enough sump size, pump volume or oil cooling capacity to be adequately protected by 5w20 under all circumstances.

As I said, Ford isn't stupid.

I agree with you, however, unless I am mistaken, the "argument" is that 5W-20 is not sufficient even in engines that were specified for it. Somehow the discussion changed from a vehicle that was specified for 5W-20 to those that were not and that is the reason I posted the information about the 6.2/6.8L engines. I would assume the power density between a 5.4L and 6.2/6.8L is vastly different and yet 5W-20 is still more than adequate for those larger engines pulling more than double the weight noted in the disclaimer for the back specified 2V engines.

Even for the engines that are specified to use 5W-20 (such as the Camry in the example), there is still a stigma that 5W-20 is not good enough and therefore XX-30/40 must be used. In my short time on the board, I see (more or less) X-20 lovers or haters and not very many in between. I am not a 5W-20 lover per se, I am using the designed oil specification for my vehicle, if 5W-30/40 was specified I would use it, but since 5W-20 was, I use it. I guess I question when x-20 WILL be "good enough" to join the ranks of the hallowed xx-30/40 oils and thus will no longer be viewed as a consequence of a regulation change.



^ that
 
Seems to me there is a lot of arguing from two different perspectives of the same idea.

Some very good statements of reason and fact thrown in for effect.

The odd tidbit thrown in to perpetuate the discussion....
wink.gif


BUT, you are all wrong!!

Manufacturers all have a large oil viscosity dart board to select recommendations!
lol.gif
 
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