Need Help with Oil Selection

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Its the R&D cost is that I was referring to. The expensive part is engineering the oil to pass the cert, I imagine that could very well could cost hundreds of K.

That, too, is a bit of a red herring. Several boutiques claim that they're suitable for whatever proprietary European specification. Now, if they claim they're suitable, there must have been some R&D involved, too. I'm hoping they didn't just throw darts at their product list and grab the product number that was struck. So, if they've done R&D to determine that it's suitable, what's the difference? One can choose to test a product and not certify it, or test a product and have it certified. At the very least, these products should be claiming, and claiming in good faith, the most current and relevant ACEA specifications.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Its the R&D cost is that I was referring to. The expensive part is engineering the oil to pass the cert, I imagine that could very well could cost hundreds of K.

That, too, is a bit of a red herring. Several boutiques claim that they're suitable for whatever proprietary European specification. Now, if they claim they're suitable, there must have been some R&D involved, too. I'm hoping they didn't just throw darts at their product list and grab the product number that was struck. So, if they've done R&D to determine that it's suitable, what's the difference? One can choose to test a product and not certify it, or test a product and have it certified. At the very least, these products should be claiming, and claiming in good faith, the most current and relevant ACEA specifications.


Exactly. You've already done the expensive bit, why not ram it home? So to speak.

Unless of course you haven't done the expensive bit and you know it won't pass.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I worked on oil approval and VW charged approval few years back (VW 504.00/507.00) around 3,200 euros or $4,000.


Pretty sure you mean 3200-4000 Euro in paperwork and testing if the oil is actually complaint.

It must not be that easy, only two products are available and its been that way for some time.


UD

You mean R&D of oil? Of course it is more expensive.
Sending oil to VW? $4,000 to send oil, and get approval letter back (if oil gets approved or not approved). It is in interest of car companies also to make easier for customers to use right oil.
So there are no conspiracy theories how this costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, which I bet is story pushed by companies like RL, RP and Amsoil (though Amsoil is getting SOME oils approved).


Its the R&D cost is that I was referring to. The expensive part is engineering the oil to pass the cert, I imagine that could very well could cost hundreds of K.

If anyones formulation they have laying around will pass Im sure they'd have sent a 4K check and a sample along with a letter and check to I believe it may be API in this case.


Pretty sure the only thing the 642 and 651 have in common is the benz name and 229.52 oil certification.

UD


Well, that is different thing. I was involved in testing through car magazine I worked for. We were testing VW TDI and had that oil as a test inside as a part of R&D. Redline, Amsoil and Royal Purple are much, much bigger companies then this central European company that no one ever heard for outside the Balkans (though they are supplier of base oils to some big companies). But in terms of revenue, they are peanuts compare to American boutique oils.
That is why I answered that claim that RL is going to solve problem is pure B S because we do not know that at all since they do not have approval. But they say they meet requirements, which is seriously ridiculous.
At least Amsoil got approvals, but then their oils in IMO are not any better then many of the shelf oils.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
If anyones formulation they have laying around will pass Im sure they'd have sent a 4K check and a sample along with a letter and check to I believe it may be API in this case.


Well not necessarily. Some companies consider it a badge of honor to sell uncertified oils yet say they meet the requirements of the certification. It adds to the aura of mystique about the oil and makes it seem as though one is in a special club. But you are correct that doesn't mean it will pass. It might, but then it might not.

One thing I have always wondered is how do they know the exact requirements for certification? Is that something that is publicly available?



Not sure. Haven't researched it too much.


UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Its the R&D cost is that I was referring to. The expensive part is engineering the oil to pass the cert, I imagine that could very well could cost hundreds of K.

That, too, is a bit of a red herring. Several boutiques claim that they're suitable for whatever proprietary European specification. Now, if they claim they're suitable, there must have been some R&D involved, too. I'm hoping they didn't just throw darts at their product list and grab the product number that was struck. So, if they've done R&D to determine that it's suitable, what's the difference? One can choose to test a product and not certify it, or test a product and have it certified. At the very least, these products should be claiming, and claiming in good faith, the most current and relevant ACEA specifications.


Iv'e seen lots of blanket claims like you say on many oils.

I haven't seen anyone outside of the one M1 oil and MB even hint they are 229.52 complaint and its been that way quite a while now.

Sounds like a lot of liability to make that claim and fall short.

UD

 

[lim]

Originally Posted By: 2444
I came across your forum and wanted to get your advice. I have a 2014 Mercedes 250 Bluetec diesel. This is the 2.1 liter four cylinder with twin turbo. Because of the DPF (planning on removing it in the future) Mercedes is recommending an 229.52 oil and most are using Mobil 1 either 0-30 or 5-30. I recently read an article by a guy who maintains these engines and because of the high heat they generate he says they have a “coking” problem with the Mobil 1. He recommends Redline 15-40.
I’m over my head and everyone has an opinion. I would like to keep this vehicle for a long time and I have a shop here at my house and the experience to do my own service. I don’t mind paying extra for the best oil and frequency in oil changes but at this point I am at a loss to know the best oil to use. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.


It is certainly prudent to use MB Approved oils (I don't think that MB recommend any brand or blend in particular).
There are many options for the MB229.52 specifications that you seek, plenty of which are available in the USA.
As your engine is an OM651, engine oils that meet MB229.51 are also suitable; there are even more of these!

Regards, lim

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Unless of course you haven't done the expensive bit and you know it won't pass.

That, or you crammed too much phosphorus or something in there. That, however, is fine, within reason. If a company does everything to make the lubricant certified but want to go off the reservation on one component and forgo the formal certification, I can live with that. They've done the R&D and the testing. They are just following their own philosophy. But, not doing the R&D and then claiming their product is "suitable" is a shortcut I cannot accept.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: lim
Originally Posted By: 2444
I came across your forum and wanted to get your advice. I have a 2014 Mercedes 250 Bluetec diesel. This is the 2.1 liter four cylinder with twin turbo. Because of the DPF (planning on removing it in the future) Mercedes is recommending an 229.52 oil and most are using Mobil 1 either 0-30 or 5-30. I recently read an article by a guy who maintains these engines and because of the high heat they generate he says they have a “coking” problem with the Mobil 1. He recommends Redline 15-40.
I’m over my head and everyone has an opinion. I would like to keep this vehicle for a long time and I have a shop here at my house and the experience to do my own service. I don’t mind paying extra for the best oil and frequency in oil changes but at this point I am at a loss to know the best oil to use. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.


It is certainly prudent to use MB Approved oils (I don't think that MB recommend any brand or blend in particular).
There are many options for the MB229.52 specifications that you seek, plenty of which are available in the USA.
As your engine is an OM651, engine oils that meet MB229.51 are also suitable; there are even more of these!

Regards, lim


Lots of 229.51 compliant oil. No problem there.

Can you list a some of the "many" other 229.52 options?

Thanks!

UD

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: lim
Originally Posted By: 2444
I came across your forum and wanted to get your advice. I have a 2014 Mercedes 250 Bluetec diesel. This is the 2.1 liter four cylinder with twin turbo. Because of the DPF (planning on removing it in the future) Mercedes is recommending an 229.52 oil and most are using Mobil 1 either 0-30 or 5-30. I recently read an article by a guy who maintains these engines and because of the high heat they generate he says they have a “coking” problem with the Mobil 1. He recommends Redline 15-40.
I’m over my head and everyone has an opinion. I would like to keep this vehicle for a long time and I have a shop here at my house and the experience to do my own service. I don’t mind paying extra for the best oil and frequency in oil changes but at this point I am at a loss to know the best oil to use. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.


It is certainly prudent to use MB Approved oils (I don't think that MB recommend any brand or blend in particular).
There are many options for the MB229.52 specifications that you seek, plenty of which are available in the USA.
As your engine is an OM651, engine oils that meet MB229.51 are also suitable; there are even more of these!

Regards, lim


Lots of 229.51 compliant oil. No problem there.

Can you list a some of the "many" other 229.52 options?

Thanks!

UD




You can get on Amazon MB229.52 oils.
I would ay safest bet on MB229.52 is Mobil1 0W30 X1 0W30. I am not sure when it comes to engine protection it is any better then 5W30 ESP. 5W30 has higher HTHS and lower Sulfated ash. However, MB229.52 I think is aiming at fuel economy so it depends what are priorities.

 

[lim]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave


Can you list a some of the "many" other 229.52 options?



Dear Uncle Dave,

I am not sure what you are getting at. There are over 80 oils listed in the link in my post, I suppose that the Mobil and Valvoline options will be the most readily available to you.
(Afterthought - is the link not working for you?)

Regards, lim

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: lim
Originally Posted By: UncleDave


Can you list a some of the "many" other 229.52 options?



Dear Uncle Dave,

I am not sure what you are getting at. There are over 80 oils listed in the link in my post, I suppose that the Mobil and Valvoline options will be the most readily available to you.
(Afterthought - is the link not working for you?)

Regards, lim



The link works, but when I randomly check the specs they don't qualify.

Example - The first one I looked at Total Quartz INEO MC3 5W-30 right off the link

When I looked it up I got this http://totalengineoils.com/quartz-ineo-mc3-5w30/

229.51 cert only.

Then I went to INEO home page search to and typed 229.52 and nothing came up.

I entered 229.51 and two choices came up.



UD

 

[UncleDave]

Just checked the Valvoline SynPower MST C3 5W-30 as it looks like something I could actually buy here 229.51 only

http://www.valvolineeurope.com/english/products/engine_oils/synpower/cid(9497)/synpower_mst_c3_5w-30

Downloaded the data sheet.

Havoline Pro DS can't find any 229X in the spec anywhere.
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=415937&docFormat=PDF

Ill keep looking for something I can get from that sheet, but it appears at least with a little surfing it isn't cut and dried that everything on there meets 229.52 spec.


UD

 

[UncleDave]

Im working my way down the list the valvoline actually looks good to go - as does the motul and the fuchs - I just can't get any of them here.



UD

 

[UncleDave]

Actually I found one of the Vavolines!

I now have a third choice! (the tyranny of 2 choices has long weighed upon me)


UD

 

[lim]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Example - The first one I looked at Total Quartz INEO MC3 5W-30 right off the link

When I looked it up I got this http://totalengineoils.com/quartz-ineo-mc3-5w30/

229.51 cert only.

Then I went to INEO home page search to and typed 229.52 and nothing came up.


Dear Uncle Dave,

Just between the two of us, please see attached letter from a motor manufacturer to an oil company confirming MB229.52 approval. It would seem that our friends at 'Total' are a bit tardy at updating their information pages. The letter is dated May last year and they didn't even bother to update their Technical Documents Library until this February. This is not uncommon!

Your loving nephew,

lim

 

[UncleDave]

Dearest nephew,

No worries on privacy- Im a vault.

It would seem Total are indeed a bit behind their on their own site , sadly at their own expense. Ive seen this brand of oil locally never purchased it as I know nothing of them.

Have any of those letters tucked away for the Havoline line?

Whilst I have experienced minor recalcitrance from my own web team, I understand the difficulty of keeping a large compatibility list current and accurate.

What only yesterday was a meager repast, is now a veritable cornucopia of possible choices and a new game - "wheres the 229.52". Now that I know Waldo is most likely in the picture all I have to do is find him.

Please give your parents our love...


UD

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Dearest nephew,

No worries on privacy- Im a vault.

It would seem Total are indeed a bit behind their on their own site , sadly at their own expense. Ive seen this brand of oil locally never purchased it as I know nothing of them.

Have any of those letters tucked away for the Havoline line?

Whilst I have experienced minor recalcitrance from my own web team, I understand the difficulty of keeping a large compatibility list current and accurate.

What only yesterday was a meager repast, is now a veritable cornucopia of possible choices and a new game - "wheres the 229.52". Now that I know Waldo is most likely in the picture all I have to do is find him.

Please give your parents our love...


UD

You do not know anything of Total?
Have you heard of Castrol? Mobil1? Shell? It is same league!

 

[UncleDave]

"You do not know anything of Total? Have you heard of Castrol? Mobil1? Shell? It is same league!

No sir, It's basically a "new" brand to me.

Yes, I know and have used - Castrol, Shell, Mobil 1, Valvoline, Kendall, Quaker, ..not Total though.

Total was not around where I grew up, and no one I know runs it in anything.

UD

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
You do not know anything of Total?

Remember that you've had a lot of international experience. The only exposure most in North America get to Total is on race liveries. They've been talking about trying to get more stuff on the North American shelves, but I still have never seen a bottle in the wild. With even Nissan Canada using Mobil as their service fill, Total has a bit of an uphill battle.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

"You do not know anything of Total? Have you heard of Castrol? Mobil1? Shell? It is same league!

No sir, It's basically a "new" brand to me.

Yes, I know and have used - Castrol, Shell, Mobil 1, Valvoline, Kendall, Quaker, ..not Total though.

Total was not around where I grew up, and no one I know runs it in anything.

UD



I don't know how long you've been around, but it could be you remember the Fina brand (petrofina) or came across Elf oils. All Total now. fina operated and owned gas stations in the US in the previous century. Actually, they might still exist under that name.