Need a reason NOT to hate TWU Local 234

[d00df00d]

These guys went on strike at 3:00 AM today after contract renewal negotiations with the city didn't go as they wanted. They are claiming that SEPTA (public transit in and around Philadelphia, PA) has a lot more money than they did last year and isn't giving them their fair share of the pie.

They want more money, less pay-in to their benefits, etc... Typical stuff, and according to the newspapers today it was being worked out (contrary to the TWU's propaganda). But here's what got me. Among the deal-breakers that led to the strike were that SEPTA management:

1. was contracting out repair work
2. wanted to stop letting employees pick what equipment they worked on based on seniority

Apparently they felt this was important enough to leave people stranded at bus stops at 3 AM, stop poor people from getting to or from work, and clog up the streets for emergency vehicles.

I barely take public transportation, but I am hopping mad right now. Last I checked, it was up to the management to decide who worked on what. It really looks to me like the biggest motivation at play here is simple greed.

I've been asking around for a counterpoint all morning and have not found one. Can anyone please show me another side to this story?

 

[PandaBear]

Not unusual, but from what I know they need to give a long notice before a strike so people can plan (at least it is 72 hours here).

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
It really looks to me like the biggest motivation at play here is simple greed.


Quote:
1. was contracting out repair work


I tend to look at this as a job security issue. No one wants their job outsourced out from under them.

Quote:
2. wanted to stop letting employees pick what equipment they worked on based on seniority



This is a distinction due to seniority where wages and other aspects of compensation are near identical. I'm sure that there are valid justifications on both sides of this issue.

Personally I'd be happy that I had a job with a relatively sustainable funding base ..but I don't see wages being a deal breaker here.

 

[Familyguy]

And they're doing this in one of the worst economic climates in several generations...where there are millions out of work who can't get a job. They should get the same deal that striking PATCO workers got....the boot.

 

[mrsilv04]

It is nothing more than a typical union mentality these days.... "gimme, gimme, gimme".

Our local mass transit (bus system) slashed the prices on yearly bus passes a few months ago (and praised themselves for being able to do so).

Yesterday, they quietly announced that they're raising their take on everyone's property taxes.

A gift to the people who use their services, paid for by a bunch of people who don't.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I guess if everyone wants to have costs tied to the wealth/health of the community ..it would appear more "fair". I can't see giving my teachers or administrators a raise when my community is poorer than it was last contract.

I guess being tied to the EIT ..and having ALL TAXES tied to your earned income would solve all these problems ..but some see that as "redistribution of wealth" instead of redistribution of "costs". One is evil ..the other is not.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
1. was contracting out repair work


I tend to look at this as a job security issue. No one wants their job outsourced out from under them.

Of course. The question is, why in the heck should they be immune to that when everyone else is in greater danger than ever?

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
2. wanted to stop letting employees pick what equipment they worked on based on seniority



This is a distinction due to seniority where wages and other aspects of compensation are near identical.

Drivers and operators make $14.54 to $24.24 per hour. Mechanics make $14.40 to $27.59 per hour. Doesn't look identical to me....

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The question is, why in the heck should they be immune to that when everyone else is in greater danger than ever?


Would you subject yourself to the peril willingly if you had some way to stop it?

"I don't want protection from outsourcing. I'll stand on my own merit and realize that there's always someone to do my job for a few dollars less. I really don't care if you do this to me. I'll suffer as the chips fall. Go ahead ..I'm man enough to suffer needlessly and will selflessly sacrifice myself for the good of the body. I know it's ultimately for the greater good and I eagerly look forward to being one of the broken eggs in our ever evolving omelet".

Does that fall into line with your way of thinking?

Quote:
Mechanics make $14.40 to $27.59 per hour. Doesn't look identical to me....


What happens when there are 100 tasks and 75 top rated mechanics?

 

[Tempest]

Just keep telling yourself that unions are here to provide a small group of connected Americans "high paying, life long jobs", at your expense (don't tell yourself that part though), and all will be better...

It's amazing that doctors and nurses can't go on strike but mass transit workers can. We are continually told that mass transit is a "necessary" function.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Would you subject yourself to the peril willingly if you had some way to stop it?

If my recourse involved endangering the livelihoods of the poorest people in the city and impeding the mobility of emergency vehicles, then yes, I would subject myself willingly to that peril. Not even a second thought.


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
"I don't want protection from outsourcing. I'll stand on my own merit and realize that there's always someone to do my job for a few dollars less. I really don't care if you do this to me. I'll suffer as the chips fall. Go ahead ..I'm man enough to suffer needlessly and will selflessly sacrifice myself for the good of the body. I know it's ultimately for the greater good and I eagerly look forward to being one of the broken eggs in our ever evolving omelet".

Does that fall into line with your way of thinking?

Not quite. More like, "I will do my best, and if the climate requires more of me, I will either rise to the occasion or find something else to do."

I find the presumption that I deserve a job, let alone job security, to be utterly repulsive. As long as my employer obeyed the law, I would fully expect to be replaced if someone else could do my job for less money. That would go double if I were employed for a public service by a cash-strapped government in a poor economy.


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What happens when there are 100 tasks and 75 top rated mechanics?

The managers should make the calls as they see fit. That is their job.

 

[mechtech2]

Chicago is a cesspool for public transportation management.
Always massive problems and financial nightmares.
When I see what the managers are getting paid, and their insane retirement benefits, I have a soft spot for the workers.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

2. wanted to stop letting employees pick what equipment they worked on based on seniority


If I ran a bus company I'd want my drones driving the same vehicle day after day. Maybe they'd take care of it, show pride, etc.

If this is about the mechanics... it seems weird that they'd be paid hourly and not on some flat rate book, where the good ones get a higher rating (master diesel tech etc), better pay, and more challenging jobs. Seems like it would reward those who take all day for a simple thing, which is perhaps what the unions want. This doesn't look like "reform" though.

 

[ksJoe]

Its a free country. If their services are worth more than they're getting paid, they are free to find another job. If no one will pay them more, maybe their services aren't worth it...

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

2. wanted to stop letting employees pick what equipment they worked on based on seniority


If I ran a bus company I'd want my drones driving the same vehicle day after day. Maybe they'd take care of it, show pride, etc.

If this is about the mechanics... it seems weird that they'd be paid hourly and not on some flat rate book, where the good ones get a higher rating (master diesel tech etc), better pay, and more challenging jobs. Seems like it would reward those who take all day for a simple thing, which is perhaps what the unions want. This doesn't look like "reform" though.


It might be more of an apprenticeship program. A Ford parts supplier (UAW) in the area had one (since gone). Basically a senior maintenance man did absolutely nothing. He had a "coolie" plebe who did exactly what he said ..step by step. That's how every entrance level maintenance new hire worked his way up. By the time he was done, he knew it all ..through and through. Great program if you can afford it.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: Tempest


It's amazing that doctors and nurses can't go on strike but mass transit workers can. We are continually told that mass transit is a "necessary" function.


Doctors and nurses don't NEED to go on strike, as they have created a monopoloy situation, governed by the AMA, which restricts who enters the field. Given the monopoly, they can charge what they want at will, no need to negotiate by taking their services off the market, as they have essentially already restricted the labor pool.

 

[Herz]

man I really HATE unions.

 

[TooManyWheels]

As a former middle manager at the local transit authority, I have a few things to add here.

First of all, no transit authority anywhere is self supporting. All off them are approximately 80% government subsidized. And if you think only lower income types ride the bus, you are very wrong. Locally we have many routes to far off, well-off communities, which is a direct government subsidy that lowers in-town housing prices, and raises distant prices.

Secondly, one issue with privatized maintenance is that the private sector has many incentives to scimp on maintaining the equipment, especially if they are given the better equipment to maintain, and/or know that they will only be maintaining that equipment for a limited time due to having a limited term contract, and/or always getting to pass the equipment they undermaintain back to the authority in favor of even newer equipment to undermaintain. Naturally, that shows up in subsequent financial analyses as the private sector being more efficient, since the union mechanics get stuck having to take up the slack.

It is the same situation as rental car agencies doing the bare minimum maintenance, knowing that they can pass the real costs off to someone else. As far as flat rate labor rates, we considered that, but were unable to find any such standards available, or any authority who had developed their own.

Third, as far as hiring bus drivers, our local scale was so low that the real goal in hiring was to find someone who was not a substance abuser or violent criminal who would work for what we could pay. Petty criminals were OK. Our recruiters were always below goals, which resulted in decent overtime for those on board. That was still cheaper than raising the rate for all operators.

 

[greenaccord02]

They should say, "If you come back to work within the next 24 hours, we will graciously allow you to keep your job without penalty" and then have a mass firing the next day for those who think making some kind of point was worth more than feeding their children.

People need work these days. I'm sure they'd have a line of good, qualified workers ready to take these lazy bums' place. There's probably some ludicrous state law against doing that, though.

Enjoy your socialism. It's no wonder why you see so many northern license plates down here now.

 

[SecondMonkey]

I avoid union made items like the plague. More so than chinese made items. When I hear on the news things like GM having to shut a factory down and the union workers either have to take a day or two off, or find a new job, it makes me happy. Very happy. Good riddance I say! Unions are OUTDATED in today's economy. These sorts of ridiculous practices came from the turn of the century when there was no minimum wage or workers rights of any kind.

If my employees started complaining they aren't getting enough money, or they don't like the tools I give them, I'll tell them where the door is and remind them where not to let it hit them on their way out...

 

[PandaBear]

Maybe we should train our national guard to take over public transit in emergency (and actually that would be good for national security).