My Tire Hyper-Inflation Story... What's Yours?

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Originally Posted By: AstroTurf

I have been looking at pyrometers online, and looked at an IR Thermometer yesterday. I will have one... One Day.

What are your experiences with them? What's Your Story?

Thanks, Jim

I do not have pyrometer yet, but I have played a lot with various tyres and inflation for the various car including adjusting the damper setting. At the end my butt is sensitive enough to feel 0.5 psi deflation on the tire I use, that is why at the end I abandon Nitrogen filled due to the tyre still lose 0.5 psi after 2-3 weeks. The fact that my neighbor is a gas station with free air even encourage me to just check the inflation at least weekly.

I do not overinflate tyre beyond sidewall marking, but I always keep my spare tyre pressure as high as the limit written on the sidewall so i do not need to check often.
Based what I learnt, the best is still do not oversize too much, and always match the tyre choice with the suspension characteristics, or else either the ride quality or traction will be significantly compromised. Normally I will end up just inflate a bit above placard to get better handling due to mostly short trip I do, and only interested on AA traction tyre due to heavy rains that often happen in my area. So far Pilot Sport 3 is the best tyre I find for balance of wet and dry performance, good comfort and reasonable price.

BTW, in the case you already got your pyrometer, you can use this guide to start your next experiment
Inflation Testing
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
Well actually their are.

But it just further shows that tire technology has not fully settled out yet.

Tires live and breath more than any other part on a vehicle.

Jim


I'm confused by the comment ".....tire technology has not fully settled out yet........"

What did you mean by that.
 
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
I do not have pyrometer yet, but I have played a lot with various tyres and inflation for the various car including adjusting the damper setting. At the end my butt is sensitive enough to feel 0.5 psi deflation on the tire I use, that is why at the end I abandon Nitrogen filled due to the tyre still lose 0.5 psi after 2-3 weeks. The fact that my neighbor is a gas station with free air even encourage me to just check the inflation at least weekly.

I do not overinflate tyre beyond sidewall marking, but I always keep my spare tyre pressure as high as the limit written on the sidewall so i do not need to check often.
Based what I learnt, the best is still do not oversize too much, and always match the tyre choice with the suspension characteristics, or else either the ride quality or traction will be significantly compromised. Normally I will end up just inflate a bit above placard to get better handling due to mostly short trip I do, and only interested on AA traction tyre due to heavy rains that often happen in my area. So far Pilot Sport 3 is the best tyre I find for balance of wet and dry performance, good comfort and reasonable price.

BTW, in the case you already got your pyrometer, you can use this guide to start your next experiment
Inflation Testing


Hey Thanks for the Link.

Here's one for you...
www.turnfast.com

Hope it helps, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
Well actually their are.

But it just further shows that tire technology has not fully settled out yet.

Tires live and breath more than any other part on a vehicle.

Jim


I'm confused by the comment ".....tire technology has not fully settled out yet........"

What did you mean by that.



In my opinion...

Tire technology is advancing more rapidly, for the better, then the American and European tire regulating bodies. They just can't keep up. So, They apply general findings about tires to all like sized tires. An example might be, 2 tires, same size, could be very different in the quality, material, and care with which they are made. But the regulating bodies, the auto makers, and the tire makers are applying all of the same operating parameters to these 2 very different tires. So, as long as the basic inflation recommendations are followed by the consumer, all should be safe. But, the consumer has been slighted in the end. Not getting everything out of the product that he purchased. There is no further testing that is revealed to the customer that says: This tire on your vehicle will do this, or that tire on your vehicle will do that.

It is simply said that: This is the recommended tire pressure, check it once a month, and rotate them regularly.

Just my thoughts, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
In my opinion...

Tire technology is advancing more rapidly, for the better, then the American and European tire regulating bodies. They just can't keep up. So, They apply general findings about tires to all like sized tires. An example might be, 2 tires, same size, could be very different in the quality, material, and care with which they are made. But the regulating bodies, the auto makers, and the tire makers are applying all of the same operating parameters to these 2 very different tires. So, as long as the basic inflation recommendations are followed by the consumer, all should be safe. But, the consumer has been slighted in the end. Not getting everything out of the product that he purchased. There is no further testing that is revealed to the customer that says: This tire on your vehicle will do this, or that tire on your vehicle will do that.

It is simply said that: This is the recommended tire pressure, check it once a month, and rotate them regularly.

Just my thoughts, Jim


First, nothing we have been discussing was impacted by the regulators. They will tell what the labels are supposed to say, what the minimums of certain things have to be, but the regulators don't influence what inflation pressure standards are - either from the tire manufacturer's point of view, or from the vehicle manufacturer's perspective.

Further, the tire standards are the starting point for both the technology the tirer manufacturer's use and for the technology the vehicle manufacturer's use. There is no connection between the quality, materials, and the care tires are made, and the load vs inflation pressure standard. The standard is independent. It is the starting point. The fact that different tires have differebnt characterisitics is a fact what the tire manufacturer intented as a final result.

Clearly, there are tires designed to be soft riding and tires that are designed to be good handling - at the same inflation pressure. Needless to say, it would be wrong-headed to expect both these tires to have the same characterisitcs - and that appears to be the basis of your remarks.

I hope you realize that the inflation pressure specification results in a certain compromise in performance. It doesn't maximize any particular property. I can understand the desire to improve some particular property. What bothers me is deviating so FAR from the placard pressure and not only not recognizing that there may be significant changes in performance in other areas, but being quite defiant in defending a position without the data to back the position up.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
First, nothing we have been discussing was impacted by the regulators. They will tell what the labels are supposed to say, what the minimums of certain things have to be, but the regulators don't influence what inflation pressure standards are - either from the tire manufacturer's point of view, or from the vehicle manufacturer's perspective.

Further, the tire standards are the starting point for both the technology the tirer manufacturer's use and for the technology the vehicle manufacturer's use. There is no connection between the quality, materials, and the care tires are made, and the load vs inflation pressure standard. The standard is independent. It is the starting point. The fact that different tires have differebnt characterisitics is a fact what the tire manufacturer intented as a final result.

Clearly, there are tires designed to be soft riding and tires that are designed to be good handling - at the same inflation pressure. Needless to say, it would be wrong-headed to expect both these tires to have the same characterisitcs - and that appears to be the basis of your remarks.

I hope you realize that the inflation pressure specification results in a certain compromise in performance. It doesn't maximize any particular property. I can understand the desire to improve some particular property. What bothers me is deviating so FAR from the placard pressure and not only not recognizing that there may be significant changes in performance in other areas, but being quite defiant in defending a position without the data to back the position up.


First and foremost, I have not stated how FAR off of the placard pressures I am.
Second, I have given you my data... All that you asked for.
Thirdly and Finally, I am fully aware of my vehicles performance, in all areas. That is an assumption that you are making.

Oh, just one more thing, You have gathered limited data from me on this topic. What are your thoughts? What is your own personal Tire Hyper-Inflation Story?

Thanks, Jim
 
I can't believe this pointless thread is still alive and kicking; 13 pages of a guy overinflating his tires and everyone getting upset.
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
First, nothing we have been discussing was impacted by the regulators. They will tell what the labels are supposed to say, what the minimums of certain things have to be, but the regulators don't influence what inflation pressure standards are - either from the tire manufacturer's point of view, or from the vehicle manufacturer's perspective.

Further, the tire standards are the starting point for both the technology the tirer manufacturer's use and for the technology the vehicle manufacturer's use. There is no connection between the quality, materials, and the care tires are made, and the load vs inflation pressure standard. The standard is independent. It is the starting point. The fact that different tires have differebnt characterisitics is a fact what the tire manufacturer intented as a final result.

Clearly, there are tires designed to be soft riding and tires that are designed to be good handling - at the same inflation pressure. Needless to say, it would be wrong-headed to expect both these tires to have the same characterisitcs - and that appears to be the basis of your remarks.

I hope you realize that the inflation pressure specification results in a certain compromise in performance. It doesn't maximize any particular property. I can understand the desire to improve some particular property. What bothers me is deviating so FAR from the placard pressure and not only not recognizing that there may be significant changes in performance in other areas, but being quite defiant in defending a position without the data to back the position up.


First and foremost, I have not stated how FAR off of the placard pressures I am.
Second, I have given you my data... All that you asked for.
Thirdly and Finally, I am fully aware of my vehicles performance, in all areas. That is an assumption that you are making.

Oh, just one more thing, You have gathered limited data from me on this topic. What are your thoughts? What is your own personal Tire Hyper-Inflation Story?

Thanks, Jim


If you didn't state how far off the placard pressure you are, then you have not provided all the data. Those are mutually conflicting statements.

Your temperature analysis does not account for environmental variation.

Your experimentation has not measured the performance degradation in any other areas. You have not objectively measured braking performance at the grossly increased pressure. "Feeling" OK in normal driving is meaningless in an emergency stop.

Optimum load (minimum temp increase) often occurs well below maximum sidewall pressure, so there is no need to hyper-inflate, that's why you're not getting many stories on hyper-inflation. No one else here really exceeds the max rated pressure, there is simply no advantage, and many disadvantages. Ref: http://www.dawsengineering.com/inflationpressuresforplussizefitments-daws.pdf

Your compatriot in this practice, Tactical Driver, referred us to this very site: http://www.dawsengineering.com/index.html

You'll find, in reading the papers published there (They're engineering papers, founded in engineering principles with rigorous testing, including the one I referenced) how extensive tire testing really is. For example, stability testing in plus-size fitments:
http://www.dawsengineering.com/impact of plus sizing on vehicle stability.pdf

This contradicts your statements above on the lack of tire testing.

Your testing to date has not covered enough miles to determine tread wear changes, if any. You would have to run one set of tires at placard - measure their life, then run another set at your new pressure and compare, but a few thousand miles can't tell how changes in tread wear of the tire will manifest themselves.

But I am less concerned with potential improvements in tire wear than I am with the proven degradation in braking traction and impact resistance caused by over-inflation (much less hyper-inflation) as those are direct, negative effects impacting safety. Tires are cheap, lives are not.

Why do you keep advocating this unsupportable practice?

Seriously, is it worth increasing the risk of blowout or collision when you can't even prove that this will increase longevity?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: mpvue
I can't believe this pointless thread is still alive and kicking; 13 pages of a guy overinflating his tires and everyone getting upset.


The concern I have is that someone else will follow his example and end up hurt. Mess up an oil change? You replace the engine...the risk is to your wallet.

Adopt a practice that increases risk of a crash? You could mess up your life...the risk is to people...
 
I think this may be my last post on this thread, but there is one last tid bit of info that might help explain where I am coming from.

When a vehicle manufacturer wants his tire manufacturers to supply tires for his production vehicles, he sends a list of specifications to his tire suppliers. On that list will be a list of tests that have to be performed - and the performance level for each.

I have one from General Motors and the list is for 15 tests. Yes, some of them are trivial to this conversation - dimensions, flat spotting, and the like - but some are quite pertinent - ride, handling, snow traction, wet traction, etc.

To further punctuate this, just the handling portion evaluates something like 10 different items. The test itself takes about 20 minutes around a handling course. To be able to perform this test takes years of practice. There is nothing scarier than a heavy duty van loaded to its GVW (4 1/2 tons!) smoking the tires around a road course. All leaned over and squawling, it is a sight to behold. And all the while, the ride engineer is making mental notes.

It is obvious that no one involved in this (or similar discussions) has done this on any vehicle, let alone a whole range of vehicles - otherwise they would have presented the data. Until someone does, I don't think anyone can state they are fully aware of their vehicles handling.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
If you didn't state how far off the placard pressure you are, then you have not provided all the data. Those are mutually conflicting statements.

Your temperature analysis does not account for environmental variation.

Your experimentation has not measured the performance degradation in any other areas. You have not objectively measured braking performance at the grossly increased pressure. "Feeling" OK in normal driving is meaningless in an emergency stop.

Optimum load (minimum temp increase) often occurs well below maximum sidewall pressure, so there is no need to hyper-inflate, that's why you're not getting many stories on hyper-inflation. No one else here really exceeds the max rated pressure, there is simply no advantage, and many disadvantages. Ref: http://www.dawsengineering.com/inflationpressuresforplussizefitments-daws.pdf

Your compatriot in this practice, Tactical Driver, referred us to this very site: http://www.dawsengineering.com/index.html

You'll find, in reading the papers published there (They're engineering papers, founded in engineering principles with rigorous testing, including the one I referenced) how extensive tire testing really is. For example, stability testing in plus-size fitments:
http://www.dawsengineering.com/impact of plus sizing on vehicle stability.pdf

This contradicts your statements above on the lack of tire testing.

Your testing to date has not covered enough miles to determine tread wear changes, if any. You would have to run one set of tires at placard - measure their life, then run another set at your new pressure and compare, but a few thousand miles can't tell how changes in tread wear of the tire will manifest themselves.

But I am less concerned with potential improvements in tire wear than I am with the proven degradation in braking traction and impact resistance caused by over-inflation (much less hyper-inflation) as those are direct, negative effects impacting safety. Tires are cheap, lives are not.

Why do you keep advocating this unsupportable practice?

Seriously, is it worth increasing the risk of blowout or collision when you can't even prove that this will increase longevity?


Astro14,

Not sure that I know what Compatriot means, I also looked and I cannot find one post made to this topic by Tactical Driver...

I am glad you shared the links though, I will have a look at them. Thank You.

I started this topic so that people may be educated about this subject. I had hoped that the collective genius of this site may have been able to better define this subject to all's benefit. Please don't prove me wrong in that hope. There is already to much mis-information out there.

So having said all of that... My Hyper-Inflation Story as well as some of yours have been told. Is there any corrective action people should take besides the statement of...

Follow the Placard, and ONLY Follow the Placard.

Well Fellers, The Members of BITOG are waiting.

Please enough of the nonproductive arguing.

Jim
 
Jim, you and I agree that the placard pressure may not be right for every condition. European manufacturers have different numbers in their manuals, or on their placards for different load/speed conditions. That approach makes sense - and my first post on the subject reflected that...

Please don't twist my words or mis-quote me.

Where have I ever said "Follow the Placard, and ONLY Follow the Placard."?

What I am saying is that exceeding the sidewall limit is both unsafe and unnecessary. You can get the optimized pressure for your application without doing so.

I further maintain that your experiment to date is inconclusive because the variables are not controlled and the range of necessary testing has not been done. The position that tires are not sufficiently tested is contradicted by engineers who work in the industry.

You and Tactical Driver have been espousing this strategy of exceeding the sidewall max pressure in various internet fora, thus, you're compatriots = companions, colleagues.

Sincerely,
Astro
 
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf


Hey Thanks for the Link.

Here's one for you...
www.turnfast.com

Hope it helps, Jim

Thank you for the great resource link !


You're Welcome.

Have a Good One, Jim
 
BTW, what is the max psi stated on your Michelin LTX M/S ? I know you have stated 1709 lbs as max load that is a standard for P rated on that size with LI 99.
Just curious
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
Originally Posted By: AstroTurf


Hey Thanks for the Link.

Here's one for you...
www.turnfast.com

Hope it helps, Jim

Thank you for the great resource link !


You're Welcome.

Have a Good One, Jim


That is a great resource...the role of the pyrometer, gauge accuracy and desired outcomes are all discussed...

Thought this quote germane: (Note: use the car manufacturer's recommended tire pressure as the baseline. Many service and oil change stations with poorly trained techs will pump tires up to pressure stated on the tire side wall. Hello! That's the maximum setting, not the recommended setting. Watch out for those guys!)

Cheers,
Astro
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
If you didn't state how far off the placard pressure you are, then you have not provided all the data. Those are mutually conflicting statements.

I did tell you that my cold psi was set between 35 and 51 psi. See this link for an explanation of 35, 44, and 51 psi labeling for P-Rated tires:
http://www.barrystiretech.com/loadtables.html

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Your temperature analysis does not account for environmental variation.

I have measured and monitored my tires psi both before and after driving and have measured and monitored it against ambient temperature increases.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Your experimentation has not measured the performance degradation in any other areas. You have not objectively measured braking performance at the grossly increased pressure. "Feeling" OK in normal driving is meaningless in an emergency stop.

You say that it has not, But you don't know what I have done, Nor can you point to factual info stating that the increase that I have implemented does.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Optimum load (minimum temp increase) often occurs well below maximum sidewall pressure, so there is no need to hyper-inflate, that's why you're not getting many stories on hyper-inflation. No one else here really exceeds the max rated pressure, there is simply no advantage, and many disadvantages. Ref: http://www.dawsengineering.com/inflationpressuresforplussizefitments-daws.pdf

What does that mean, "No one else here really exceeds the max rated pressure"? Have I told anyone here to exceed the Max Rated Pressure? Have I exceeded the max rated pressure? Your web link has to do with plus sizing, which I have no care for.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Your compatriot in this practice, Tactical Driver, referred us to this very site: http://www.dawsengineering.com/index.html

You'll find, in reading the papers published there (They're engineering papers, founded in engineering principles with rigorous testing, including the one I referenced) how extensive tire testing really is. For example, stability testing in plus-size fitments:
http://www.dawsengineering.com/impact of plus sizing on vehicle stability.pdf

Once again with the Compatriot stuff. Can we leave the fancy words in the class room? I don't understand them and you are attempting to group me with others. I stand alone here, on my own merits and findings.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
This contradicts your statements above on the lack of tire testing.

Does this study tell me how to tune a tire/wheel package (stock size) to my vehicle? No.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Your testing to date has not covered enough miles to determine tread wear changes, if any. You would have to run one set of tires at placard - measure their life, then run another set at your new pressure and compare, but a few thousand miles can't tell how changes in tread wear of the tire will manifest themselves.

We are 4,874 miles into this set of tires. I will keep you posted on the tires wear.

Originally Posted By: Astro14
But I am less concerned with potential improvements in tire wear than I am with the proven degradation in braking traction and impact resistance caused by over-inflation (much less hyper-inflation) as those are direct, negative effects impacting safety. Tires are cheap, lives are not.

You say proven degradation in braking traction, did you find that on the plus sizing web link?

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Why do you keep advocating this unsupportable practice?

Not sure I follow, Unsupportable? Your opinion, maybe?

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Seriously, is it worth increasing the risk of blowout or collision when you can't even prove that this will increase longevity?

Longevity of my tires is not what this is about.

It is about sensibly tuning your tires to your vehicle.

Thanks, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
BTW, what is the max psi stated on your Michelin LTX M/S ? I know you have stated 1709 lbs as max load that is a standard for P rated on that size with LI 99.
Just curious
grin.gif



The sidewall says something about 35 psi.

Hope it helps, Jim
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

Thought this quote germane: (Note: use the car manufacturer's recommended tire pressure as the baseline. Many service and oil change stations with poorly trained techs will pump tires up to pressure stated on the tire side wall. Hello! That's the maximum setting, not the recommended setting. Watch out for those guys!


I don't think that I have miss quoted you before or now...

What does that "Germane" mean, is that like your flying call sign or something?

LOLz, Jim
 
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