MTL in my Mazdaspeed 3

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double vanos

double vanos

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Back in Arizona. Finally
I thought I'd get back here to report how the MTL is doing in my Speed 3. This 6 speed manual trans is spec'd for 75w90 GL-4 fluid, but after lousy cold weather shifting I decided the FF had to go. First up was Redline MT90. It never warmed up enough to shift well - simply too thick. Then I went with a 50/50 mix of MTL and MT90 and shifting got a little better. Finally, I got tired of the grinding 1-2 shifts and dumped the mix and refilled with MTL 100%.

The shifting got really good with that in the trans but I always had the suspicion that the 70w/80 MTL might be wearing out the trans prematurely due to it being too light. I lost my nerve and refilled the trans with this MotorCraft product: http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.co...mission%20Fluid .

This stuff is pricey (made in Germany), but all over the internet it is supposed to be good. $84 later I had 4 quarts ready to go in the Speed.

I needn't have worried about the MTL in my trannie - I took special care draining it into a super clean pan so I could see if there were any obvious wear metals. Nothing, nada, zip, clean as can be - the stuff wasn't even discolored in the least. The stuff is in such good shape, I rebottled it just in case the MotorCraft lube lets me down. BTW, the MTL had 11,000 miles of mostly summer driving on it.

OK, this new oil had better be good (think $19.18 a quart good). Well, it is very good. The trans shifts like it had the MTL in it and all is quiet on the western front. So I am back in spec with my trannie oil and she shifts good too.

The coming cool weather will be the deciding factor because the MTL had that easily taken care of and I suspect this new oil will do well too. There are plenty of positive remarks from forums covering Nissans, Corvettes, Honda S2000s, etc. etc. from all geographic areas.

A couple of notes: this is supposed to be a 75w-90 weight oil, but it is the thinnest 75w-90 I have ever seen. Also, it smells like 3M yellow weather stripping glue. Strange stuff indeed.

I PM'd Pablo about the Amsoil MTG and if this stuff doesn't work in cold weather I be calling him to give Amsoil products a whirl - I went with the MC product first because the car is still in warranty and the dealer would have a heck of a time saying the oil caused a problem with this Getrag transmission http://www.getrag.de/en/250. German trannie, German oil, MotorCraft approved.

If there were to be a failure, I hope I am covered. I doubt there will be a problem as these cars are catching h e l l from the younger owners at the track and on the street and internet forums rarely mention trans failures.....now crankshaft and connecting rods are a different story... those posts usually say something like "I got my Mazda branded paper weight today..." followed with pictures that show a new 3 piece crankshaft where it used to a one piece. I'll post if anything new pops up...
Cheers! Double Vanos
 
My son has a Mazda3 MT and I use the Mazda MTL because it is still on warranty; shifts nice and smooth. Is there a reason why you didn't opt for the Mazda MTL fluid?
 
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firemachine69: What? He's talking about a manual transmission.

double vanos - what year of vehicle?

Quote:
but it is the thinnest 75w-90 I have ever seen. Also, it smells like 3M yellow weather stripping glue. Strange stuff indeed.


Synchromesh 75W90 MTL's are not supposed to have the same viscosity as differential fluids, but are in the viscosity range for a 75W90 for improved cold weather shifting.

Quote:
A synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.

A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal, brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials.

Current synchromesh MTL GL4 viscosites are:

1. ATF Series - Type; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL 4's)
2. Synchromesh Series - Type; 9.3 - 9.5 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)
3. 75W85 Series-Type; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)
4. 75W90 Series-Type; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).

MTL specific lubes we're developed for manual transmissions and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes, so their viscosities will not match most viscosity charts.
 
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Without a used oil analysis, I wouldn't judge a fluid by looks alone. But it is good that it is not discolored(not overheated), and that you can't see visible wear(any magnets?).

I would also recommend sticking with a fluid in the weight required to protect the transmission. But, if the weather is cold, stepping down a single weight shouldn't cause problems.

Some data sheet cst visc comparisons at 40c:
Ford MTF 75w90 76
Redline MT90 90
Redline MTL 56.2
Amsoil MTG 84.5
Amsoil MTF 47.1

As you can see, Ford seems to have gone a little thinner or possibly is using a VII to improve the viscosity curve for better cool weather shifting. You can also guesstimate that the 50:50 blends of the boutique fluids would be in the lower ~70's which is pretty close to the Ford fluid. The flashpoint on the Ford MTF is also 50c lower then any of the above boutique fluids(possibly basestock caused or additive).

If a fluid has a SAE label, it must match the SAE viscosity chart! Not using a SAE weight label on certain MTF's/MTLs simple prevents an incorrect motor oil or incorrect gear oil from being used in a manual transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: double vanos
Finally, I got tired of the grinding 1-2 shifts


I wonder why so many manual transmissions experience 1>2 gear grinds when none of the other gears grind at all? Improperly machined 2nd gear synchros maybe?
 
Second gear is the heaviest [most mass] gear that you shift up into. It will accelerate the slowest, therefore it will synch the slowest..
 
Well, the new fluid is working out great - shifting is very smooth. As soon as the weather changes to cooler I'll report how it is going. Now on to the questions...

I would have used Mazda's fluid but I didn't know it existed - my dealer is supposed to be a gold cup high rated outfit and when I asked the SA about replacement fluid he stated that they just refill transmissions that need fluid with whatever is handy. Nice.

I don't think Mazda has strenthened these Ford 4 cylinder engines much for turbo duty - they must be fairly robust; however the failures that do occur are usually accompanied with mods for more HP and boost than the original design intended.

My MS3 is 2008 model.

I bookmarked the cst values for the various fluids viscosities - good info to have! Thanks for the insite MolaKule!

unDummy..thanks for the various visc values of the branded trannie fluids - now I know why this fluid shifts so much better than MT90! I couldn't find the cst value for the MC product anywhere. Fine work!!

Suprisingly enough, Mazda doesn't have any magnets on the drain plugs. Just a simple steel plug with aluminum sealing ring. Might be a magnet buried somewhere in the trans though...
On Mazdas247.com the debate on just exactly what trans is in these MS3's is still on. One of the guys there posted pics from the Getrag site and the looks and description seem close...jury still out.

Good discussion why the 1-2 shifts are so iffy...I never thought about the lower gearsets being bigger (and heavier)...makes complete sense! Also, in early 2008 I think the MS3 transmissions were upgraded to triple cone synchros from doubles - does that help/hinder? Who knows?

OK, I'll close for now - as soon as it gets good and cold here in Houston I'll repost how the MC fluid is doing...

Cheers all and thanks for the very nice discussion and valuable info!
DV
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: double vanos
Finally, I got tired of the grinding 1-2 shifts


I wonder why so many manual transmissions experience 1>2 gear grinds when none of the other gears grind at all? Improperly machined 2nd gear synchros maybe?


I think it may have something to do with the adjustment on the linkage itself. I had to adjust mine. Just pull the tab up, slide the knob thingy up a bit and now 1st and 2nd can get into gear easily. Be careful not to go TOO far, otherwise you will start grinding 5th and 6th. Very easy adjustment to make though, no tools even necessary on a speed 3. Just pop the middle console lid off (in the middle) by pulling up, and there's the linkage and adjuster right there. Takes less than a minute total.
 
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Just an update to this, as I've seen the inside of this transmission recently. There is a very large magnet in there at the bottom... though it's not on a fill or drain plug. The transmission has to be apart to see it.

I had the Ford Motorcraft XT-M5-QS fluid in it from 10k miles to 24k miles, so 14k total miles on the fluid. It was quite thin looking at room temperature compared to the stock fluid, by comparison. Shifting was much improved over stock fluid though. In extreme cold it took a bit to be optimal, but not long, and much much better than stock fluid.
 
Good data and good reporting.

I mixed Redline products to 12cSt, which is much thicker then the VW oem MTF at 7cSt.
shocked.gif
 
Just an update to this old thread Mazda now recommends a GL-4 75w80 fluid for their Mazdaspeed 2010. However, it uses the same Aisin BG6 transmission as the earlier models, with only the gearing changing slightly in 1st and 6th gears. Also, I've researched several cars that use this same transmission and they all cite to use GL-4 75w80 fluid in them. Mazda says the change in fluid for the new MS3 is for better shifting properties and better cold shifts.

I'm of the belief that the 75w90 fluid is just too thick for this transmission and I'm looking at the 75w85 fluids out there to put in mine...

Red Line MT-85 (their new line 75w85 fluid)
Mitsubishi DiaQueen Super Multi 75w85 gear oil part # MZ313376
GM Synthetic MTF 12346190 75w85 (aka Castrol Syntorq LT)
Castrol Syntrans 75w85

...to try in mine. I think I'm going to go with one of the Castrol products. I'm tempted to try a 75w80 since all of these Aisin BG6 transmissions call for that spec, including the new Mazdaspeed 3's. I really wish Mazda would back-spec our cars to this spec as it's pretty obvious this is what that transmission operates best on. That's why everyone that tries a Synchromesh is so amazed. Though they are out of warranty spec.
 
Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Dodge...also have 75w85 gear oils.
Nissan, Mitsubishi, Toyota... have a 75w80 gear oil.

I wouldn't be surprised that the automaker used a "common spec" gear oil only to find out that it isn't the optimum. Its not unheard of for tech writers or engineers to make mistakes. So, if you require that 75w90, feel free to use the 75w85 or even 75w80.

In warranty or out of warranty is meaningless. Use what you want.
 
Well, I just got my order in from racer parts wharehouse (great price btw) for the new Red Line MT-85 manual transmission fluid. I have a bit over a half a quart of XT-M5-QS left over from before so I'm going to put 2.5 quarts of the MT-85 in and the .6 quart of the thicker ford motorcraft stuff in to make the overall mixture a tad thicker. So I'll report back on how well it does compared to stock and compared to just the motorcraft honey. I'll probably change this out this next winter with a straight MT-85 fill and leave that in for a long time. I just want a summer run a tad thicker and to do a short run this time to get out all the metals. Plus I will be tracking this car and drag'ing it this summer as I'm going to some local autorx events and a couple midnight drag races to see what 1/4 times it can get.
 
After 10k miles now on the Red Line MT-85 I'm just not happy with it to be honest. Shifting is only mildly (at best) better than stock fluid. I would love to try the GM 12346190 (Castrol Syntorq LT) fluid but I can't find it very easily and the place that has it wants $30 a quart (yikes) so I'm going with the original poster's Red Line MTL next. Thinner than the MT-85 I have in now should give better shifting.

The Ford XT-M5-QS shifted great but ended up messing up my 3rd gear synchro due to some hard driving and a hot summer. Took that out and it was pitch black and thin as water. I'm sure it's fine for easy driving but I don't trust it to protect properly. I think this may be due to a large amount of VII's (look at how thin it is at 40cSt!!) b/c no other synthetic MTF has anywhere close to that kind of spread between it's 40 & 100cSt.

So I believe under hard use it is shearing dramatically, therefore dramatically degrading its protective abilities. This correlates well to reports of users claiming the fluid shifts better with age. My guess is it's shearing down thinner and thinner over time.

I have pics of my transmission apart after the fail while it had the XT-M5-QS in it, the magnet had the most metal I've ever seen on any magnet ever. It was obvious the fluid failed in a big big way. The tech was freaking out about it and kept a bottle of the spent Motorcraft honey to show his friends. It was as thin as water.

Still waiting for that Mazda back spec for our cars. Don't understand the reason they haven't yet. This transmission is made for a thinner fluid like 75w80 GL-4. I think the Red Line MTL is a good choice but I sure wish I could give that GM stuff a go.
 
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