Moving into an old house, lack of 3 prong outlets

[IndyIan]

I'd try just running a decent extension cord for your 3 prong devices and use the 2 prong plug in your room for all your 2 prong devices. Tape the extension cord down well in the corner of the baseboard go over any door ways.
See if you can find a unused circuit too.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Nick,

Did you notice the lack of 3 prong outlets before you moved in ?


I haven't moved in yet, but this is a rental with two good friends of mine, one of their sisters, and another friend of theirs. I did notice it, but at the time I thought it would be a simple get an electrician to put in some more outlets.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Can I run a wire to the cast iron radiator in the room as a ground?


Not legally, and it won't work well anyway. Without a proper ground, there is still the risk of transient surge activity. For electronic equipment there simply isn't any shortcut. Properly rewiring a 3 prong outlet back to the panel is the only way to provide the proper protection for equipment and yourself.

Welcome to living in an old house.


I only ask because I know surge protectors don't function properly without a ground.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Plumber
I would be more concerned about the plumbing....pffttt....


Me, too, especially with this:

Originally Posted By: NickR
But after speaking with an electrician, they stated a permit would have to be pulled, and a city inspection to follow. The landlord does not want to go through that (for whatever reason)...


The owner of the home may not want an inspector there because there may be other things that do not meet code. Do rental houses in this area have to meet certain standards? I think some areas have rental house inspection programs. If your area has one, I might consider having the home looked at, for your own protection.


As it turns out, Albany does in fact require a certificate of occupancy, which requires a city inspector to inspect the home for safety. I'm beginning to suspect this was not done. My name isn't on the lease in this case, however.


Originally Posted By: Dan55
If the two prong outlet is grounded why cant the electrician just change the receptacle to three prong?


My understanding is you need a true ground bare copper to the ground in the panel. Or something else truly grounded.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Delta
I do NOT condone this at all, but I know some people have back grounded using the neutral if you can confirm it's wired correctly. Only seen this practice being used on the only magnetic ballast for florescent lights that required a ground. I've heard of it being used on receptacles. I wouldn't do this personally. Is the box downstairs newer with breakers? If so fishing a new line would be the best option IMO, especially having the computers on their own circuit. Does Albany require you to pull permits just to add a circuit? If so it can't be that much, might even do that out of pocket.


We ran into a problem with the place we're in now. Each bedroom only had one receptacle and no CATV. They didn't want the cable though the newly redone hardwood floors (and I can understand, they're beautiful) so I added a combo receptacle/CATV box in each room on its own circuit. Had to go to break out the Kline flex drill bit set for that.


No way in [censored] I'm doing that. If I can't get an electrician in to put in real outlets, I'll just have to do the run extension cord from another room with a grounded outlet. Although, I'm now really hoping the 3 prong retrofits are in fact grounded. I didn't think to bring my outlet tester with me. Guess I'll find out.

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Or you can be like my dad.i was very young when he showed me how to cut the ground prong off of every cord

The goal is to prevent my computer hardware from exploding due to power surge. This won't help much with that.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Cardenio327
As Americans, we worry too much about properly grounding electrical equipment. What about the rest of the world?

It does help a little protecting electronic equipment and reducing the risk of shock.

A career union electrician once told me that three prong outlets were implemented for hardening in case of nuclear war. If something is double grounded [3 prong outlet], there is less chance it will be damaged in an EMP event.

Canada and Mexico use 3 prong outlets because it is what their biggest neighbor [the US] does. I think the UK does too, but in the rest of the world it is not that common.


As far as I'm aware, surge supressors cannot clamp correctly without a true ground, which is my concern. IF lightning strikes the power grid nearby or the house, I don't want my computer and associated hardware to go up in literal smoke.

 

[eljefino]

Extension cords running room to room due to crummy wiring is frowned upon by the fire dept, especially if you hide it under rugs, tape it in place, etc. The risk of overloading one or two circuits with everybody's stuff is starting to overtake the risk of ungrounded stuff. Though you're transferring the risk to the landlord, as it's your stuff, not his wires, you're interested in protecting. Whenever a flophouse makes the news here they specifically mention the extension cord thing: common, apparently.

The instructions that come with (came with?) "cheaters" say to run the third wire/prong to a water pipe. If the house really dates back 100 years they should have iron pipe throughout and maybe even an interconnect in the basement.

 

[westom]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
My understanding is you need a true ground bare copper to the ground in the panel. Or something else truly grounded.
Which ground. Not safety (receptacle) ground. Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground. Major difference.

Protection that actually protects appliances is as close as possible to an earthing electrode. Protection increases with increased separation between protector and electronics. Informed homeowners simply earth one 'whole house' protector (at the service entrance) to have effective protection. This superior solution (only solution found in facilities that cannot have damage) works just as good on three or two wire circuits.

These can also be installed by (rented from) the AC utility. The girl who reads a meter can even install it - that simple.

Never connect a ssfety ground to pipes. That creates a human safety threat. Never connect safety ground and neutral together. Those can only merge inside a mains breaker box (cannot even connect together inside sub-panels). Electricity is always different at both ends of a wire. Neutral and safety ground are electrically different in a receptacle box.

Above 'whole house' protection defines transistor safety. Human safety requires a third prong (for every three prong appliance). Or a GFCI must be installed either in the receptacle or in the breaker box. No way around these only two possible solutions. Best is to ignore anyone who recommends some alternative (ie ground to a pipe). They clearly do not understand how that creates serious human safety threats.

Extension cords are only temporary service. Using one as suggested is a fire code violation. Temporary service is often defined as 30 days.

Landlord would have difficulty finding good tenants if he does not provide sufficient (three prong or GFCI protected) power to each room. Recent codes may now require more work and more costs. New code requirements may mean an electrical inspection is required - because he did not upgrade earlier.

Above addresses two concepts - transistor safety and human safety.

 

[Dan55]

If the outlet is wired with armored cable (BX) the outside metal jacket is used as the grounding means back to the panel. As long as the outlet box is properly grounded a receptacle change is all that is needed. My current home was built in 1965 with BX and 2 prong receptacles, since that was the code at that time. So if you are lucky the outlets are grounded and a receptacle change is all that is needed. Good Luck

 

[Chris142]

What about those adapters that have a place to put the screw and it acts as a ground?

 

[hattaresguy]

Ugh I hate old houses, I'd gut that thing and upgrade all the mechanicals. The windows are probably [censored] as well as no insulation in the walls.


Only advice I have; I have zero tolerance for old houses not up to modern standards, everything I own is new.

 

[andyd]

Yah there was a situation north of here. A fire in an old house, 4 people died. Houses were built with little regard for utilities. Coal was cheap and there was no concept of insulation. Or fire stops. You're letting yourself into a situation where the dilapidated condition of the house and winter, and young people could combine in a bad way. Wabbout smoke and CO detectors? When I was your age I'd move in in a heartbeat. Take care of your self, NickR.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Can I run a wire to the cast iron radiator in the room as a ground?


You don't want to connect to a radiator because the only metallic conductor back to the earth is (if any) the fill line on the boiler.

You're much better off ensuring that both sides of the water meter are bonded by heavy solid conductor, and then running a ground to a cold water pipe. Or better yet is to run new Romex to the panel, which I assume is properly grounded. Which you cant do due to it being a rental...

So I digress.

You can by code use three prong outlets on the "load" side of a down stream GFCI. That doesn't help with loads that desire a proper low impedance earth ground though...

Also, there is no good basis of thinking that there is protection from the tab on the adapter. Yes, a bonded ground conductor ensures a safe path back in case of a fault within an electric load, but you need to be careful. If the neutral conductor were to ever fail, and hot remain hot, you would be the path to earth, however the impedance of your body and path allows.

If you don't need a ground for power quality and filtering reasons, just swap the two prong for a GFCI. You can then plug three prong plugs into it though there are no grounding conductors. Better still is toads a ground to the water pipe, per above, which is electrically equivalent to a third conductor in Romex.

A load fed by a series ups will have naturally clean power. My advice then would be to run a 10ga extension cord from the grounded outlet as far as you could, then plug in the ups and connect the loads directly.


NEC Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground;” or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground”

So the question comes to WHY YOU need a ground, as a computer buff - electronics or general safety. A GFCI-protected grounding-type receptacle without an equipment-grounding conductor is safer than a grounding-type receptacle with an equipment-grounding conductor, but without GFCI protection. This is because the GFCI protection device will clear a ground-fault when the fault current is 5mA (+ or - 1mA), which is less than the current level necessary to cause serious electric shock or electrocution.

A grounding-type receptacle without a ground is a safe installation, as long as the protection circuitry within the GFCI device has not failed from shorts or voltage transients.

When there is no GFCI protection provided, Sec. 250-130(c) allows you to replace an ungrounded-type receptacle with a grounding-type receptacle at an outlet box not containing an equipment-grounding conductor—if you bond the grounding contacts of the receptacle to any one of the following locations:

Grounding electrode system (Sec. 250-50);
Grounding electrode conductor;
Panelboard equipment-grounding terminal; or
Grounded service conductor.
Check Sec. 250-146 for the proper method of grounding receptacles and Sec. 250-148 for the proper method of terminating equipment-grounding conductors within receptacle outlet boxes.

 

[dishdude]

It's a rental, run a heavy duty extension to one of the new outlets.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Ugh I hate old houses, I'd gut that thing and upgrade all the mechanicals. The windows are probably [censored] as well as no insulation in the walls.


Only advice I have; I have zero tolerance for old houses not up to modern standards, everything I own is new.





Since we are renting, this isn't really an option. Downtown Albany doesn't really have many newer houses, and the ones there are are far more expensive to buy, and buy extension, rent.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Can I run a wire to the cast iron radiator in the room as a ground?


You don't want to connect to a radiator because the only metallic conductor back to the earth is (if any) the fill line on the boiler.

You're much better off ensuring that both sides of the water meter are bonded by heavy solid conductor, and then running a ground to a cold water pipe. Or better yet is to run new Romex to the panel, which I assume is properly grounded. Which you cant do due to it being a rental...

So I digress.

You can by code use three prong outlets on the "load" side of a down stream GFCI. That doesn't help with loads that desire a proper low impedance earth ground though...

Also, there is no good basis of thinking that there is protection from the tab on the adapter. Yes, a bonded ground conductor ensures a safe path back in case of a fault within an electric load, but you need to be careful. If the neutral conductor were to ever fail, and hot remain hot, you would be the path to earth, however the impedance of your body and path allows.

If you don't need a ground for power quality and filtering reasons, just swap the two prong for a GFCI. You can then plug three prong plugs into it though there are no grounding conductors. Better still is toads a ground to the water pipe, per above, which is electrically equivalent to a third conductor in Romex.

A load fed by a series ups will have naturally clean power. My advice then would be to run a 10ga extension cord from the grounded outlet as far as you could, then plug in the ups and connect the loads directly.


NEC Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground;” or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground”

So the question comes to WHY YOU need a ground, as a computer buff - electronics or general safety. A GFCI-protected grounding-type receptacle without an equipment-grounding conductor is safer than a grounding-type receptacle with an equipment-grounding conductor, but without GFCI protection. This is because the GFCI protection device will clear a ground-fault when the fault current is 5mA (+ or - 1mA), which is less than the current level necessary to cause serious electric shock or electrocution.

A grounding-type receptacle without a ground is a safe installation, as long as the protection circuitry within the GFCI device has not failed from shorts or voltage transients.

When there is no GFCI protection provided, Sec. 250-130(c) allows you to replace an ungrounded-type receptacle with a grounding-type receptacle at an outlet box not containing an equipment-grounding conductor—if you bond the grounding contacts of the receptacle to any one of the following locations:

Grounding electrode system (Sec. 250-50);
Grounding electrode conductor;
Panelboard equipment-grounding terminal; or
Grounded service conductor.
Check Sec. 250-146 for the proper method of grounding receptacles and Sec. 250-148 for the proper method of terminating equipment-grounding conductors within receptacle outlet boxes.


I'll see if I can pull the receptacle and replace it. Now that I think about it, there is a new GFCI outlet above it on the kitchen wall, on the other side of the wall. Maybe that is a new line, with a ground directly in the wall behind this. That would be a nice coincidence if it's the case. Otherwise I'll follow the advice, replace it with a GFCI and mark no ground, and use an extension cord from the other room (which won't have to traverse any walkways, just a set of double sliding wood doors which will remain closed and sealed.

In the interest of finding out what has been, done, I had intended to call the City of Albany and find out if there had been any permits pulled on the house for electrical work in the last decade or two, but I forgot.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Extension cords running room to room due to crummy wiring is frowned upon by the fire dept, especially if you hide it under rugs, tape it in place, etc. The risk of overloading one or two circuits with everybody's stuff is starting to overtake the risk of ungrounded stuff. Though you're transferring the risk to the landlord, as it's your stuff, not his wires, you're interested in protecting. Whenever a flophouse makes the news here they specifically mention the extension cord thing: common, apparently.

The instructions that come with (came with?) "cheaters" say to run the third wire/prong to a water pipe. If the house really dates back 100 years they should have iron pipe throughout and maybe even an interconnect in the basement.


He is powering computer equipment. Unless he's running a server farm, I do not see any chance of overloading a cord. (I have never seen a grounded cord rated for less than 13.5 amps.)

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Can I run a wire to the cast iron radiator in the room as a ground?


You don't want to connect to a radiator because the only metallic conductor back to the earth is (if any) the fill line on the boiler.


In my old house, several outlets WERE grounded that way...in the cellar, someone had added grounds from the furnace boiler and one of the other steam pipes to the electrical box. An electrician told me, after checking how it was done (not the neatest job in the world, but everything was connected properly), that officially, it's not cool...but unofficially, he saw no problem with it. I had it changed to sell the house-the only reason I did was because I wasn't sure the buyer's inspector would be OK with it.

 

[Mr Nice]

Nick,

Why not just rent a 'modern' house ?

 

[JustinH]

The landlord doesn't want you doing anything to his property. Leave it alone or live elsewhere.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Extension cords running room to room due to crummy wiring is frowned upon by the fire dept, especially if you hide it under rugs, tape it in place, etc. The risk of overloading one or two circuits with everybody's stuff is starting to overtake the risk of ungrounded stuff. Though you're transferring the risk to the landlord, as it's your stuff, not his wires, you're interested in protecting. Whenever a flophouse makes the news here they specifically mention the extension cord thing: common, apparently.

The instructions that come with (came with?) "cheaters" say to run the third wire/prong to a water pipe. If the house really dates back 100 years they should have iron pipe throughout and maybe even an interconnect in the basement.


He is powering computer equipment. Unless he's running a server farm, I do not see any chance of overloading a cord. (I have never seen a grounded cord rated for less than 13.5 amps.)


You and I know that but if, say, the cops bust a party and they see extension cords going from room to room, it could lead to a code enforcement referral. I get "not rocking the boat" on a reasonable, basically-sound rental... lived in one myself for 2.5 years. Get a $15 GFI, kill the breaker, stick it in there, make it look like it always belonged.

http://www.pressherald.com/2014/12/15/po...s-street-blaze/

Quote:


Inside the duplex, there are numerous holes in the walls, stains and patches of Spackle. An extension cord ran down a staircase leading into a second-floor bedroom. One bedroom door had a sticker reading, “In case of fire, yell fire.”

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Nick,

Why not just rent a 'modern' house ?


Originally Posted By: Nick R

Downtown Albany doesn't really have many newer houses, and the ones there are are far more expensive to buy, and buy extension, rent.


I had the same issue in college, knob and tube in one place, the outlets were installed directly into the baseboard without any j boxes. The outlets themselves were so worn out that if you plugged something in, the plug fell right out! The joys of living in an old city.