Motor Trend Hit Job on PHEVs

[SC Maintenance]

That may not be entirely accurate. A Prius HEV can make it up to 30 MPH on level ground before the ICE steps in. My PHEV can travel at up to 80 MPH in EV mode. Obviously the latter requires more horsepower and more battery output. Is the main drive motor M1 identical between a Prius and Prius Prime? Hopefully someone more knowledgeable that I can chime in.

I can't answer on the Prius, but the Rav4 Prime has larger electric motors (and larger battery) than a Rav4 Hybrid. It makes sense because the Toyota Synergy drive can put power to the wheels from both electric motors and the ICE at the same time, so in a hybrid the intent is the ice is always available for extra power if needed, where the Prime is intended to run on the Electric motors only except for longer trips.

It may also explain why your Prius V you feel is weaker - because with the synergy drive at higher speeds / higher loads the ICE is intended to take the brunt of the load - with the Electric motor being there for an added boost if needed. At slower speeds - lower loads its opposite - ie city driving is supposed to be more electric for better efficiency.

 

[Carmudgeon]

I had serious doubts about Cadillac's decision to focus their energy on cars and I thought moving their headquarters from Detroit to New York City was downright stupid and pointless.

Incredible how Johan de Nysschen was able to parlay his earlier stints into being able to sucker convince not just one, but two OEMs to hire him as CEO, and move their HQs to cities where he wanted to live, and enjoy life before he wore out his welcome. To a lesser extent, Nasser did the same thing with PAG in Irvine, and the studio in London, but NY and Hong Kong's relevance to making cars wasn't even paper thin.

Heck, not even Ghosn was brash enough to do that. He just accepted having to rack up the fuel bills on the corporate jet.

 

[Astro_Guy]

When you are driving on ICE does it charge the battery or is it just charged by plug-in? Should have stopped in Winchester....gas is cheaper.

It doesn't attempt to fill the battery while the ICE is running, but it does push some charge in to keep the hybrid option viable. In other words it attempt to maintain a low state of charge so that the electric side of the equation can help when needed.

 

[Torrid]

The problem with EVs is that they're slowly being mandated as the only option, in California at least. For city dwellers who travel short distances they're great - so long as you own your own home with your parking spot and your own charger. For city dwellers who live in large apartment complexes, even those who travel short distances, exactly how is that going to work? In that respect EVs have an elitist element to them.

With respect to my situation, I live in a semi-rural area. My trip to the grocery store is a 15 mile round trip - well within the range of an EV. But let's suppose I want to visit my son and his family. I often do what I call a "flip turn" where I drive up in the afternoon, have dinner with them, and then drive back home - about 375 miles worth in total. Is an EV viable in that scenario, or am I simply supposed to get used to range anxiety during my final 50 miles, pretty much out in the middle of nowhere and late at night? There were times I planned my fuel range poorly. I don't like sweating bullets waiting for the moment my cars sips its last tablespoon of gasoline and coasts silently on the shoulder of a dark highway. With an EV I'll be sweating bullets every trip, unless I stop in Salinas somewhere for an hour so my EV can snort some electricity.

Also too, my wife and I enjoy road trips. We made a trip to this year's Indy 500, the two of us banging out 600 mile days one after the other. Perhaps you read about it. Tell me how an EV is going to make that trip faster, better, or even possible without having long delays and having to carefully choose our hotels.

The issue I have with EVs is not the EV itself. Rather EVs are represented to be "the only solution" when in fact they're not.

IMO, the ultimate solution are hybrids because they satisfy the needs of everyone from short distance city dwellers to long distance road trippers like my wife and me. Unfortunately that doesn't satisfy the agenda of some the EV advocates because of their all or nothing attitude.

A perfect example is the article the OP posted where the writer thought people who bought PHEVs were selling out somehow, you know compromising. Even you @Torrid said you didn't think much of PHEVs, but last I knew you had two cars, an ICE (a GTI IIRC) and and a Tesla in order to suit your driving requirements. Does that mean everyone should have two cars like you, even apartment dwellers?

We all know that compromise is a sign of weakness in today's society and government, so is anyone really surprised with that missive the OP posted?

Scott

That’s the thing though. I don’t need an ICE vehicle how I use it, it’s just what I have at this point. I’ve never considered what car to take due to distance of the drive. The only consideration I take is if I’m going by myself or with the family. The Tesla is our family car and my wife’s daily. If my job didn’t have me away from home for 2-3 days at a time and we may only need one car and I can assure you as much as I like my GTI it isn’t going to win the spot as the only car.

That and I’ll fully recognize my thought process behind it is different because I’ve lived with it. It’s impossible to know for those who haven’t done it and like you mentioned, there are scenarios where an issue can arise. Has never fit my use case though. I don’t like how hybrids feel either. I’m looking for that little extra. Affordable hybrids numb it. CVT transmissions and most are crossovers. It just is a part of the market I have no interest in. I see why they’re popular. Most people only care about convenience. I tried that fully practical approach before and I just didn’t get the engagement I’m used to with my vehicle. It’s not for me.

 

[4WD]

Beryl left a bad situation to only own an EV in Houston - however plenty of them also had an ICE vehicle …

 

[IveBeenRued]

The author is clearly a black and white kind of guy who only wants EVs because he believes that PHEVs are “stuck in the past”.

That said, I owned a PHEV for 6 years. Loved it around town and if I was only using it as an around town vehicle, I would still have it. The issue is that if you are using 100% SoC daily, for years, the battery degrades quickly. My Ford C-Max Energi went from having 22 miles of usable range down to 7-8 miles over a period of 6 years. I put roughly 1500 0%-100%-0% charge cycles on that little thing over my 6 years of ownership. If Ford had programmed it to stay within 10-90% or 20%-80% SoC, it would have performed much better over time.

 

[Torrid]

I have no problem at all with EV vehicles I do have a problem with some of the people that own them and agendas that are trying to force them on on those of us that don't want to own one, they believe it for common good which is pure crap.
I can see hybrids being a great solution for city dwellers, less pollution less wear and tear on the vehicle yet still have the ability to go long distance without the worry of charging.

I lived in a big German city, drove a lot in town and also took longer trips in the winter with the car. I owned my own home but most people do not but it would still be ideal for that environment, take into account some cities are now either banning or proposing banning ICE vehicles in town but not ev's or hybrids. Obviously the rump swab who wrote the article took none of that into account, he is just pushing the agenda.

BTW I suggest you take your own advise.

No one I see here is forcing anything. The direction you’re sending your energy in this matter is misguided. Relax.

 

[Astro_Guy]

The issue is that if you are using 100% SoC daily, for years, the battery degrades quickly. My Ford C-Max Energi went from having 22 miles of usable range down to 7-8 miles over a period of 6 years. I put roughly 1500 0%-100%-0% charge cycles on that little thing over my 6 years of ownership. If Ford had programmed it to stay within 10-90% or 20%-80% SoC, it would have performed much better over time.

That's good to know. I charge up to 100% daily but virtually never discharge beneath 30%.

 

[Trav]

No one I see here is forcing anything. The direction you’re sending your energy in this matter is misguided. Relax.

Then I guess you are blind if you don't believe mandating ev only in many places by 2035 and draconian epa mileage numbers are forcing people to buy something they really don't want then you are not informing yourself very well. As far as me putting energy into this you are mistaken.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1143439_which-states-align-with-california-ev-mandate-in-2024

 

[JohnnyG]

Which I think gets to his point about greenwashing for the OEM's. The author is basically claiming that the majority of PHEV's are being driven on gas with dead batteries so in the field they're not reducing emissions which is the primary goal.

That was the case with the Volt, over 12-15 years ago. I would hope that by this time, drivers of PHEV's would be more educated.

 

[demarpaint]

Then I guess you are blind if you don't believe mandating ev only in many places by 2035 and draconian epa mileage numbers are forcing people to buy something they really don't want then you are not informing yourself very well. As far as me putting energy into this you are mistaken.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1143439_which-states-align-with-california-ev-mandate-in-2024

My bet still stands that the 2035 pipe dream goes right down the toilet. 2050 possibly. With this current heatwave people are having a hard time running their AC in a lot of places, going all electric is still a pipe dream. Hot summers and cold winters are just a reminder.

 

[PandaBear]

I think the ICE steps in simply because the battery capacity of the HEV is not sufficient to allow more. The traction motor should have ample power to sustain 80 mph, its just that the battery capacity isn't there with the HEV while with the PHEV it is.

If I remember right, the regular Prius has / had 100hp in electric motors and the gas engine is probably about another 100hp or so. If the battery and inverter is large enough in the PHEV this should be good enough in normal acceleration in regular driving. I think most likely you can choose which "mode" you want it to run in if it is anything like a regular Prius, electric only, power, economy, etc.

You likely will not get all the power of a "both gas and electric at full blast" if you run in EV mode, like when you climb the grapevine on I5, but I think most people wouldn't mind either going slower to stay in EV mode on that, or use both gas and electric if they want to go faster (i.e. if they are on a road trip and is going to use gas anyways).

If you climb that every day then you have to probably look at whether EV would work better. Regular hybrid would not have enough battery capacity to do a full decline and regen charge the battery, you would end up using the disk brake or engine braking after a thousand or so feet decline. Not sure if PHEV regen would be able to absorb all that back into the battery or if it is too small of a pack.

 

[PandaBear]

It doesn't attempt to fill the battery while the ICE is running, but it does push some charge in to keep the hybrid option viable. In other words it attempt to maintain a low state of charge so that the electric side of the equation can help when needed.

I know that in my Prius the "economy mode" is actually trying not to use and charge the battery as much as possible, to avoid the round trip charge / discharge efficiency loss. Basically, in scenario where you can run the engine just a little more to power your electronics (spark plug, ECU, AC, etc), you would not try to discharge the battery, and if your battery charge is good enough you would not try to charge it more than "in a reasonable zone". So in a way it would work like an underpowered gas engine car with an electric CVT and regen braking.

PHEV would be a completely different control mechanism to make it works as intended. It would likely optimize for running the battery for as long as possible, do not try to keep it charged during normal operation, and even if you need the extra power from gas engine during this time you would not try to run it more than necessary to power your own electronics (at least if designed right it shouldn't).

When the battery is low it definitely has to run the engine harder to power its own electronics during normal use, just like any regular hybrid.

 

[fdcg27]

It doesn't attempt to fill the battery while the ICE is running, but it does push some charge in to keep the hybrid option viable. In other words it attempt to maintain a low state of charge so that the electric side of the equation can help when needed.

This makes sense, since there would otherwise be no point to a PHEV. The excess capacity provided by the fully charged PHEV battery pack provides for some miles of EV use while the car then switches to more conventional HEV operation and maintains a SOC around a battery capacity typical of a HEV.
Best of both worlds or worst? Depends upon whether you're writing as an assignment for your employer or an experienced driver of hybrids.

 

[Torrid]

Then I guess you are blind if you don't believe mandating ev only in many places by 2035 and draconian epa mileage numbers are forcing people to buy something they really don't want then you are not informing yourself very well. As far as me putting energy into this you are mistaken.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1143439_which-states-align-with-california-ev-mandate-in-2024

My bet still stands that the 2035 pipe dream goes right down the toilet. 2050 possibly. With this current heatwave people are having a hard time running their AC in a lot of places, going all electric is still a pipe dream. Hot summers and cold winters are just a reminder.

Your answer is here Trav. Not to mention you're leaning on something a few wackadoo states are supposedly pushing. Most of us here are in common sense states that aren't pushing this stuff. The "draconian" EPA mileage numbers will force some changes. That part I feel is necessary. Maybe we'll get some common sense fuel efficient CARS out of this mess instead of all of these topsy turvy crossovers that look like they're having a bad reaction to a bee sting.

Personally I'll just buy the EV and help offset CAFE for the ICE you prefer. We all get what we want.

 

[demarpaint]

Personally I'll just buy the EV and help offset CAFE for the ICE you prefer. We all get what we want.

If only it would work that way. When you look at the demands the EPA puts on ICE vehicles it appears evident they are looking to make it very difficult for them. As an over simplified example to bring out a point: How about the EPA says EVs need a 500 mile range and need to be able to fully recharge in 10 minutes by 2026 or heavily penalize the vehicle driving up the cost. Some might say impossible and cry foul. They want 55 mpg for ICE for 2026. As it stands now all the EPA expects is that by 2027 44% of cars on the road be an EV, good luck with that. Bottom line we all won't be getting what we want.

 

[alarmguy]

My bet still stands that the 2035 pipe dream goes right down the toilet. 2050 possibly. With this current heatwave people are having a hard time running their AC in a lot of places, going all electric is still a pipe dream. Hot summers and cold winters are just a reminder.

Maybe we need to start building some coal fired electric plants since the public is still out to lunch on Nuclear

 

[demarpaint]

Maybe we need to start building some coal fired electric plants since the public is still out to lunch on Nuclear

Sure thing, and maybe drill for even more oil to power the go green electric.

 

[Torrid]

If only it would work that way. When you look at the demands the EPA puts on ICE vehicles it appears evident they are looking to make it very difficult for them. As an over simplified example to bring out a point: How about the EPA says EVs need a 500 mile range and need to be able to fully recharge in 10 minutes by 2026 or heavily penalize the vehicle driving up the cost. Some might say impossible and cry foul. They want 55 mpg for ICE for 2026. As it stands now all the EPA expects is that by 2027 44% of cars on the road be an EV, good luck with that. Bottom line we all won't be getting what we want.

Maybe eventually that will get to that level if something tech wise doesn't change, but the Mach-E is the reason we still have a Mustang, but not a Camaro. I'd have to say it's hard to tout Ford doing anything right though with either of our opinions about the company.

It will continue to ramp up. These numbers sound nuts, but on the edge of doable with current technology. Some of these vehicles will have to get smaller and lighter though. That's what has killed the small car, with the truck number is easier to hit since it's possible to jump smaller vehicles into the truck class by increasing ride height, quoting a little towing capacity, and adding AWD.

The Prius hits these numbers. It is doable. There just aren't many like it. Most people want ground clearance and something like a Rav4 instead. The market demand has shifted for whatever reason, I'd say it's multiple factors of practicality, cars getting more expensive, and wanting more for their money if they're going to buy anyway. The vast majority of the car buyers of the last 20 years buy crossovers now. EV sales count towards that. Adoption continues so with a couple adjustments, some more hybrids, and some of us buying more EVs that want them, we'll get there. I'd have to look up and see what the truck number was, but I believe it was 35-38mpg. For some reason I recall 48mpg cars and 35mpg trucks, but that might be the current number. Stuff like the Rav4 make that truck number possible.

I'm not sure what we all want anyway. Seems like even here every single one of us want something different.

 

[JohnnyG]

I thought this was a good article:
https://jalopnik.com/the-chevy-volt-was-so-ahead-of-its-time-automakers-are-1851585578

I know that I really enjoyed mine for the two years I leased it. It could have used a little more electric range, like 80 - 90 miles total, but for the time it was pretty advanced.
GM messed this one up too of course.